Only logged-in members can vote!
→ Click here to create a Mob account which gives you access to our forum and all our free bankrolls (no deposit bonuses) → Log in to existing account!
Joined: Dec '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 579
Posted by retribution:
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by remco2504:
And you dont even know anything about any winnings or losses i had in poker. I played millions of hands on PS 2 and won many MTT's and played lots of cash.
I have read many poker books and casino game books but this doesn't matter
Hahaha, I LOVE it. Epic flame war in the forums, and for once I'M not involved haha that's gotta be a record or something.
All seriousness though, remco I hate to say it, but if you've put in as much volume and won as much as you say you have, I really don't think you'd be taking the "online poker is rigged" stance. Every decent poker player knows that the only ones crying "rigged" are the ones who keep losing money. I could easily list several reasons WHY online poker is rigged, but I won't waste my time since this is a pointless discussion, just like the thousands and thousands of other "rigged" threads floating around the net.
"There's 2 kinds of players in poker. Winners and losers. " - Me
Winners work hard, study the game, practice and strive to work on their weaknesses. Losers go on forums and cry how it's unfair, and online poker is rigged.
This is not true at all...
Even when i win a tournament i often think the same. I can play 23 off in these tournaments and flop 233 so..
I just dont think its all random. I dont take a all online poker is rigged stance but i seriously suspect something and i just like to discuss this so i can see other people's thoughts and experiences. Because i have been playing for more then 10 years so yes i do have some experience.
But again this thread is about bots not about me ..
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
I would like to know what is the difference between a bot and the software that shows other players stats. I think all that kind of help should be baned from online poker. Or poker sites should make special tables just for bots, or for players that uses poker tracker or holdem manager. That would be a fair fight, Bot vs bot and the site wining the rake.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by kinogomes: I would like to know what is the difference between a bot and the software that shows other players stats. I think all that kind of help should be baned from online poker. Or poker sites should make special tables just for bots, or for players that uses poker tracker or holdem manager. That would be a fair fight, Bot vs bot and the site wining the rake.
That's just a ridiculous leap of logic there.
1) A HUD gives you information that you'd get from paying attention to the table and players anyways. 2) A HUD doesn't make your decisions for you, or in any way automate any of the process. You still make the decisions and click the buttons.
Huds are fair game. Huds are allowed by poker rooms. Bot's aren't.
Next you'll be saying that poker rooms should have seperate tables, where the fish only play with the other fish, and the winning players only play with other winning players to make it "more fair".
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Posted by retribution:
Posted by kinogomes: I would like to know what is the difference between a bot and the software that shows other players stats. I think all that kind of help should be baned from online poker. Or poker sites should make special tables just for bots, or for players that uses poker tracker or holdem manager. That would be a fair fight, Bot vs bot and the site wining the rake.
That's just a ridiculous leap of logic there.
1) A HUD gives you information that you'd get from paying attention to the table and players anyways. 2) A HUD doesn't make your decisions for you, or in any way automate any of the process. You still make the decisions and click the buttons.
Huds are fair game. Huds are allowed by poker rooms. Bot's aren't.
Next you'll be saying that poker rooms should have seperate tables, where the fish only play with the other fish, and the winning players only play with other winning players to make it "more fair".
Not really, I don't play the same every game neither do you, neither does anybody else so if you were paying attention you might get a completely different message than you would from a HUD which archives every single hand and puts it in percentages etc. Eg. the player might be on tilt, drunk, or in a gambling mood, where as a HUD might be saying hes a good tight player. HUDs are cheating in my opinion, and sorry if this is seen as controversial on here but I think its sad people pay money because their game is that bad they have to buy extra information.
As for you saying he made a ridiculous leap of logic your last paragraph is too.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
I'm somewhat on the fence on this issue. I feel that if it's something you could do, it's reasonable. Ie. I could write a set of rules and follow them, so I don't the the bot really adds much of an edge with the exception of tilt avoidance, they just play longer. And as mentioned bots are far from unbeatable, they can easily be exploited once recognized. I'm far more against data mining software that accomplishes tasks beyond human capability.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by sadamman:
Posted by retribution:
Posted by kinogomes: I would like to know what is the difference between a bot and the software that shows other players stats. I think all that kind of help should be baned from online poker. Or poker sites should make special tables just for bots, or for players that uses poker tracker or holdem manager. That would be a fair fight, Bot vs bot and the site wining the rake.
That's just a ridiculous leap of logic there.
1) A HUD gives you information that you'd get from paying attention to the table and players anyways. 2) A HUD doesn't make your decisions for you, or in any way automate any of the process. You still make the decisions and click the buttons.
Huds are fair game. Huds are allowed by poker rooms. Bot's aren't.
Next you'll be saying that poker rooms should have seperate tables, where the fish only play with the other fish, and the winning players only play with other winning players to make it "more fair".
Not really, I don't play the same every game neither do you, neither does anybody else so if you were paying attention you might get a completely different message than you would from a HUD which archives every single hand and puts it in percentages etc. Eg. the player might be on tilt, drunk, or in a gambling mood, where as a HUD might be saying hes a good tight player. HUDs are cheating in my opinion, and sorry if this is seen as controversial on here but I think its sad people pay money because their game is that bad they have to buy extra information.
As for you saying he made a ridiculous leap of logic your last paragraph is too.
I hardly see any evidence in your attempt at a point here. All a hud does is take every single hand you've played against a player, and give simple stats, such as how often they raise, how often they check, how often they are aggressive etc. These are simple traits that any astute poker player would pick up on, from carefully observing their opponent. For multi-table players it's slightly harder to garner that information, as it becomes increasingly difficult to pay all of the attention that each table needs.
By disallowing HUDS, you're putting players that multi-table at a disadvantage against someone who may only be playing at one table. How is that in any way fair? Again HUDS don't display any additional information beyond basic stats. It doesn't give you advice on what to do, nor does it show you any percieved hand ranges. It's entirely up to the player to interpret those stats, and make their own assumptions against the given situation. No different than anyone else at the table would have privlege to.
As for the bot part, well of course botting would play significantly different than a human. First off, it's programmed to do pot/draw odds etc on the spot. Something most players aren't capable of. It's able to calculate and interpret all data it has on players precisely, bereft of any errors in calculations a human would make.
Also again, bots don't get pissed off when they lose a hand they should have won. They aren't thinking about that argument they had earlier with their partner, or the rent that's due in a week amongst all the other bills. They are completely void of any emotions, thus they can play "perfect poker" if programmed properly. These are things most, if not all humans are incapable of. I dare say even Phil Ivey himself would fall against a bot if it was progammed well enough.
People never thought computers would be able to beat humans at chess, but we all know the history of that.
I'd like to add one last thing. I am all for HUDS, so long as they only utilize hands you've played against that player. Buying hand histories for the purpose of data-mining IS in my eyes completely cheating, as you're getting access to information you yourself didn't get from playing against them directly.
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
Posted by retribution:
Posted by sadamman:
Posted by retribution:
Posted by kinogomes: I would like to know what is the difference between a bot and the software that shows other players stats. I think all that kind of help should be baned from online poker. Or poker sites should make special tables just for bots, or for players that uses poker tracker or holdem manager. That would be a fair fight, Bot vs bot and the site wining the rake.
That's just a ridiculous leap of logic there.
1) A HUD gives you information that you'd get from paying attention to the table and players anyways. 2) A HUD doesn't make your decisions for you, or in any way automate any of the process. You still make the decisions and click the buttons.
Huds are fair game. Huds are allowed by poker rooms. Bot's aren't.
Next you'll be saying that poker rooms should have seperate tables, where the fish only play with the other fish, and the winning players only play with other winning players to make it "more fair".
Not really, I don't play the same every game neither do you, neither does anybody else so if you were paying attention you might get a completely different message than you would from a HUD which archives every single hand and puts it in percentages etc. Eg. the player might be on tilt, drunk, or in a gambling mood, where as a HUD might be saying hes a good tight player. HUDs are cheating in my opinion, and sorry if this is seen as controversial on here but I think its sad people pay money because their game is that bad they have to buy extra information.
As for you saying he made a ridiculous leap of logic your last paragraph is too.
I hardly see any evidence in your attempt at a point here. All a hud does is take every single hand you've played against a player, and give simple stats, such as how often they raise, how often they check, how often they are aggressive etc. These are simple traits that any astute poker player would pick up on, from carefully observing their opponent. For multi-table players it's slightly harder to garner that information, as it becomes increasingly difficult to pay all of the attention that each table needs.
By disallowing HUDS, you're putting players that multi-table at a disadvantage against someone who may only be playing at one table. How is that in any way fair? Again HUDS don't display any additional information beyond basic stats. It doesn't give you advice on what to do, nor does it show you any percieved hand ranges. It's entirely up to the player to interpret those stats, and make their own assumptions against the given situation. No different than anyone else at the table would have privlege to.
As for the bot part, well of course botting would play significantly different than a human. First off, it's programmed to do pot/draw odds etc on the spot. Something most players aren't capable of. It's able to calculate and interpret all data it has on players precisely, bereft of any errors in calculations a human would make.
Also again, bots don't get pissed off when they lose a hand they should have won. They aren't thinking about that argument they had earlier with their partner, or the rent that's due in a week amongst all the other bills. They are completely void of any emotions, thus they can play "perfect poker" if programmed properly. These are things most, if not all humans are incapable of. I dare say even Phil Ivey himself would fall against a bot if it was progammed well enough.
People never thought computers would be able to beat humans at chess, but we all know the history of that.
I'd like to add one last thing. I am all for HUDS, so long as they only utilize hands you've played against that player. Buying hand histories for the purpose of data-mining IS in my eyes completely cheating, as you're getting access to information you yourself didn't get from playing against them directly.
So the hud tells you everything about your opponents at the tables, and you think its not cheating?? In my opinion its the same b******t as its bots. The hud gives an edge not over 1 player but over 5 or 8 depending the table your playing. I want the bots be baned from poker tables in the same way as the software inteligence to give players edge!! Do you thin k its fair when your bluffing 3 bet preflop and a guy that have a program telling him that you fold 3 bet to all in 90% of the times, makes all in just to forcing you fold?? i dont think its fair, only if he played so much against you and already took some notes about your way of playing. I play 15 tables all times nl2 without hud.
My opnion, stop bots, stop huds, stop everything that doesnt help us to have a fair game!
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
It wasn't an attempt at a point, it was a completely valid point. Don't try to question the validity of my point just because you might fall within certain categories it insults. Yeah I think it would be fair if it only gave you the hands you'd played with that player, but then what would be the point in buying that information.
My point is, you play a live game in a casino, chances are you're not gunna know anything about those players. Would you think its fair if you could pay somebody who knows how they play to stand over your shoulder saying "27% of the time he folds to an all in here. Or he c-bets every flop. etc" Besides the fact you probably wouldn't listen to his advice, never mind pay for it, and would probably tell him to shut the f**k up. But this is hypothetical, I don't think you would think its fair. Its kinda like GTA the way nobody plays that game without cheating, so its just accepted as a norm.
Another thing when I started playing poker I never agreed to people being able to see how I play, other than in an experiential sense. I don't think its fair its now suddenly publicly available to anybody with the nous to find it. It's not fair that I'd have to pay to stop people tracking my results.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
For me the HUD is a kind of a legalised cheat. Yes its just info for the players. But its info you would never manage to gather if you were doing this by yourself, especially when you were playing with players for the very first time. Its info which you mostly have paid for it, to get it. And its info that no one of the players have ever agreed to get distributed worldwide. Shouldnt they have asked you before starting distributing such data of yours?
sadamman is right here, and the example with the live play is right on target
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by remco2504:
And you dont even know anything about any winnings or losses i had in poker. I played millions of hands on PS 2 and won many MTT's and played lots of cash.
I have read many poker books and casino game books but this doesn't matter
Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 58 (M)
Posts: 1372
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by remco2504:
And you dont even know anything about any winnings or losses i had in poker. I played millions of hands on PS 2 and won many MTT's and played lots of cash.
I have read many poker books and casino game books but this doesn't matter
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 747
Posted by retribution:
Posted by sadamman:
Posted by retribution:
Posted by kinogomes: I would like to know what is the difference between a bot and the software that shows other players stats. I think all that kind of help should be baned from online poker. Or poker sites should make special tables just for bots, or for players that uses poker tracker or holdem manager. That would be a fair fight, Bot vs bot and the site wining the rake.
That's just a ridiculous leap of logic there.
1) A HUD gives you information that you'd get from paying attention to the table and players anyways. 2) A HUD doesn't make your decisions for you, or in any way automate any of the process. You still make the decisions and click the buttons.
Huds are fair game. Huds are allowed by poker rooms. Bot's aren't.
Next you'll be saying that poker rooms should have seperate tables, where the fish only play with the other fish, and the winning players only play with other winning players to make it "more fair".
Not really, I don't play the same every game neither do you, neither does anybody else so if you were paying attention you might get a completely different message than you would from a HUD which archives every single hand and puts it in percentages etc. Eg. the player might be on tilt, drunk, or in a gambling mood, where as a HUD might be saying hes a good tight player. HUDs are cheating in my opinion, and sorry if this is seen as controversial on here but I think its sad people pay money because their game is that bad they have to buy extra information.
As for you saying he made a ridiculous leap of logic your last paragraph is too.
I hardly see any evidence in your attempt at a point here. All a hud does is take every single hand you've played against a player, and give simple stats, such as how often they raise, how often they check, how often they are aggressive etc. These are simple traits that any astute poker player would pick up on, from carefully observing their opponent. For multi-table players it's slightly harder to garner that information, as it becomes increasingly difficult to pay all of the attention that each table needs.
By disallowing HUDS, you're putting players that multi-table at a disadvantage against someone who may only be playing at one table. How is that in any way fair? Again HUDS don't display any additional information beyond basic stats. It doesn't give you advice on what to do, nor does it show you any percieved hand ranges. It's entirely up to the player to interpret those stats, and make their own assumptions against the given situation. No different than anyone else at the table would have privlege to.
As for the bot part, well of course botting would play significantly different than a human. First off, it's programmed to do pot/draw odds etc on the spot. Something most players aren't capable of. It's able to calculate and interpret all data it has on players precisely, bereft of any errors in calculations a human would make.
Also again, bots don't get pissed off when they lose a hand they should have won. They aren't thinking about that argument they had earlier with their partner, or the rent that's due in a week amongst all the other bills. They are completely void of any emotions, thus they can play "perfect poker" if programmed properly. These are things most, if not all humans are incapable of. I dare say even Phil Ivey himself would fall against a bot if it was progammed well enough.
People never thought computers would be able to beat humans at chess, but we all know the history of that.
I'd like to add one last thing. I am all for HUDS, so long as they only utilize hands you've played against that player. Buying hand histories for the purpose of data-mining IS in my eyes completely cheating, as you're getting access to information you yourself didn't get from playing against them directly.
sorry just my thoughts on HUDS
quote this bit
I hardly see any evidence in your attempt at a point here. All a hud does is take every single hand you've played against a player, and give simple stats, such as how often they raise, how often they check, how often they are aggressive etc. These are simple traits that any astute poker player would pick up on, from carefully observing their opponent. For multi-table players it's slightly harder to garner that information, as it becomes increasingly difficult to pay all of the attention that each table needs.
By disallowing HUDS, you're putting players that multi-table at a disadvantage against someone who may only be playing at one table. How is that in any way fair? Again HUDS don't display any additional information beyond basic stats. It doesn't give you advice on what to do, nor does it show you any percieved hand ranges. It's entirely up to the player to interpret those stats, and make their own assumptions against the given situation. No different than anyone else at the table would have privlege to.
i play 1 or two tables at a time, i watch and study the players and try to figure them out THAT IS POKER i do not not play moe than i can keep track off this gives me an advantage over people multitabling and i cn focus on one game at a time if you are multi tableing thats your choice but how can you say that it is unfair on multitablers to disallow huds that is you choice to multitabe and if you ae playing against more playes than you can keep track of then damn right you sould have to live with that disadvantage because you put youself at that disadvantage. you are not figuring out your opponent you let a piece of software do that for you and as far as im concerned that is cheatng
------------ ever tried walkng into a casino saying you want to play at 6 tables at once but its unfair that you cant keep an eye on all the tables at once so youve brought some friends along to watch the other players for you while you not there?
------------ or some kind of automated counting machine
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Seriously, you have to be able to do better to argue your point than that. I've said a thousand times, I do not condone the use of info you haven't gained from playing against that player. I don't see how you think a HUD gives you any sort of info unless you play against that player first. HUDS like HEM and PT3 DO NOT come with ANY hand histories. They only use hand histories YOU give them. Thus, unless you BUY hand histories, which I again repat I don't condone, then the HUD WON'T HAVE INFO ON A PLAYER YOU HAVEN'T played against. This is a fairly simple concept, yet I'm amazed at how much people either gloss over this, or ignore it completely.
Bottom line, poker rooms allow huds, so long as you only use hand histories you yourself have played. None other. So you can whine all you want, but the end result is they are both accepted AND legal. Bot's aren't, nor should they ever be allowed.
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
HUD are only allowed because multi tabling nerds who doesnt care about the table, only care about about what said the hud makes lot of rake for the site. Iam sure poker sites would look at it as a cheat if this kind of stuff wouldnt help them to win million in the comission of the tables. In the end its all about numbers, legalized cheat is good for poker sites as it was before the bots. They doesnt care about us, they only care about the numbers, in the end poker sites gets million and 90% of the players looses money, thats how it works in this business!
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Ok the arguments not over, don't be so arrogant.
Let me ask you one thing, I don't really expect an honest answer but I think I know the answer without you answering. It will just be interesting to see your answer...Were you a winning player before you started using tracking software?
Joined: Mar '12
Location: Netherlands
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 617
what's worse????
a bot to play against ,,or software deciding u should lose ur winnings...and tilt would do the rest???
because that's my biggest fear....software that can sort out your hand....theoreticaly it should be possible for any pokerroom to see what hand u are holding...
or in other words,,, it should be possible to create software that influence the game in general...
something compatible with let's say the pokerstarssoftware...
in theory this is possible...
If there's a programmer developing software for a certain pokerrooms..this same programmer should be able to develop software which is compatible with the clientsoftware..
i am not a IT-specialist or anywhere near,,,but have seen a lot over the years,,,and i am 100% sure this is a possibility...
please let me know what u think of this theory....and i do not write this because i am losing at the moment...
i am just trying to be not naíef,,,
------------ at least a rigged pokerroom like full-tilt would surely buy this software if it was on the market...
The world turns around money..money and again around money these days...
ethics and moral are all history...that's why we are where we are at the moment in this great planet...
people even sell there sister,wife or best friends for some extra cash...no mather if they get hurt themselves by this action in a later stadium....
greed,,,,the one thing that will definetely be the fall of humanity....
especialy those who have never seen money in big amounts....they are most dangerous...and will do anything once they got infected by the money-virus.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by sadamman: Ok the arguments not over, don't be so arrogant.
Well, when there's really no counter point you can make, it really does signify the end. Not being arrogant, just merely pointing out that your argument is only based on personal opinion anyways, as the rooms allow huds.
Posted by sadamman: Let me ask you one thing, I don't really expect an honest answer but I think I know the answer without you answering. It will just be interesting to see your answer...Were you a winning player before you started using tracking software?
Absolutely yes. In fact it wasn't until I became a winning player, that I started using HUDS. I hardly doubt they really have ever had an affect on my win rate either. Again, they don't tell me how to play, they just point out stats that allow me to form an idea of that players tendencies. Something I'd pick up from observing them anyways.
Sure watching a player won't give you absolutely PRECISE stats, such as "they c-bet 95% of the time", but if you're astute like you should be, you can figure out that "they c-bet a good portion of the time" all on your own.
See the difference there? All a hud really does is add a number to information you SHOULD be able to pick up on your own.
To be completely honest, at least lately, more often than not I'm not even using a HUD. I haven't been successful in getting a HUD to work with Zoom poker, which is currently what I'm playing. I still use them when I play SNGS and MTTS, but more often than not I'm playing Zoom.
I can play absolutely fine, winning poker, with or without the aid of a HUD. The only difference is, using a HUD allows me to comfortably play more tables at once.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Lol at Sadamman, I don't always cheat in GTA.
Totally agree with you, I'd rather play against bots than 8 players with huds, and me with no hud. To date I haven't tried one (mostly because I'm cheap and don't know how to use one effectively, although I have been wondering if I should do so to get a higher ROI).
Also I think your analogy of live play is bang on.
Retribution, the reason I agree with him is because say you made a little calculator to accurately collect info on those you've played against live, do you think a casino would let you use one? Absolutely not. Any edge that goes beyond human capability, I'm against. As long as one person uses the tech, everyone has too. Once everyone does, they're all on a level playing field again anyhow except the company who made the software is getting a share of all of their profits. It's an arms race, and the players loose.
I might be a little more lenient if a player coded it himself however, just because I'd feel like they cleverly earned the edge, but that's just cause I appreciate that kind of problem solving.
I have read some articles about bot and they are quite good...one story was that he makes money from zero to hero using a bot and now he is continuing to withdraw money while the bot is playing for him....is that really true?pokersites do regulate this bot thing right?or maybe they do not?or maybe they dont care?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by ayaraled: I have read some articles about bot and they are quite good...one story was that he makes money from zero to hero using a bot and now he is continuing to withdraw money while the bot is playing for him....is that really true?pokersites do regulate this bot thing right?or maybe they do not?or maybe they dont care?
It's quite possibly true - IMHO there is two ways to make money from a bot:
1) Make a bot and sell it online :
* Will eventually (quickly) be known to the poker site(s) and you will be quickly suspended for use * Will profit the creator because people will continue to purchase the bot * Bot installation could also include malware / spyware /etc which may also profit creator * Creator could even include poker-specific spyware - where hole card information, account user/name password information, etc was returned to bot-creator.
2) Make a good bot and never share it with anyone
* Keep your bot unknown and thus a LOT harder for sites to trace * Be smart - keep ahead of the poker sites, find out how they're tracking bots (possibly by reverse-engineering the client software) and keep at least 1 step ahead * Never get to greedy ; make sure your bot takes breaks and makes mistakes to appear more human.
