Joined: May '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 128
Is it a smart thing to do? I mean, if you hit a straight or a flush with an ace high, you will surely be in the money, but is it worth calling with a significant portion of your stack? I usually don't call after I hadn't hit it on turn, but when the flop brings just the two cards you need, it is very hard not to call a big bet. Do you think it is stupid to go all the way and call to the river? Is it chasing draws, described in several strategy articles as dumbass tactic?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 401
I think you are talking about tournament play, and there chasing draws can cost you a lot. In tournaments chasing draws can cost you a lot and hurt your stack, but it doesn't mean you should avoid it all the time, you have to be able to evaluate every spot. Folding all draws is weak, but having a good stack and going broke chasing a draw is worst IMO.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
in cash games, it's all about pot-odds, implied odds and (if you shove) fold equity. So long as it's long-term +EV it's a good idea.
FWIW: FD + two over cards is a head of top pair on any given board at the flop.
EG: AhQh is a ahead of Jc8d on this board 4h,2h,8s
So the best place to get your chips in is on the flop, while your odds are still great.
NEVER and I mean NEVER flat-call a massive flop bet that's gonna put you in a stupid position if the turn bricks. For example, on the board above, if villian puts in a big bet on that flop, you jam your whole stack in. Because if you call and the turn is blank, then you most likely WONT get odds to call the turn bet which means, you basically never had the odds to call the flop bet either.
A lot of FD value comes from fold equity, which is achieved by raising/shoving. NOT BY CALLING - people you flat-call to the river, ignoring pot-odds & fold equity are complete FISH IMO.
In an MTT it's a lot different, although, the concept of getting it in on the flop is still the same - fold equity is even more important in MTT, since people more inclined to fold when they can't reload.
It really depends on the MTT stage, don't go chasing draws early on, when you can afford to wait for better spots.. where-as later stage, when you have 5-20bb, if you flop nut FD, jam it in every time.
There are hundreds of situations that influence whether to chase draws or not. Is your flush any good if it's the 3rd or4th best flush? Is there a possibility of running into a house or quads ( I've had it happen more than once), what kind of opponent do you have, how many opponents do u have in the pot, etc etc.
Jesse's take on how to play draws is not the one and only way to play them. U will lose a lot of money if u do that blindly without evaluating all the factors before proceeding.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
Depends on the odds you get, how deep the stacks are and how likely your opponent will pay you off, if you make your hand. You can play your good draws aggressive, just like you would play a set.
The theory of odds is good but, in practice, there is a non-written law: "If you are a donk, CALL ALWAYS, no matter the pot, because the card you need will appear (most of them in the river) for sure!"
Joined: May '09
Location: Croatia
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 20481
its hard situation to decide!depends how much money or chips you have,what is position,how much your opponent have!sometimes you have to run for draw,especially when you have draw on flop and 2 more cards to show!its just your own decision!
Joined: Oct '09
Location: South Africa
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 92
all about odds, implied odds, EV, what stages of the tournament you are in and what m zone u in. Also if you know your opponents aggression factor and hand range, you can work out if you have any overcards and extra outs. Also if you raise pre-flop and miss the flop completely, if the other guy in the hand donk bets, you can work out if you have odds to call with backdoor draws but thats another whole story...
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Poland
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1189
Like some people said if you have good odds you just must call without even thinking because it's EV+. If you're not getting odds you can always.
jessthehuman you're right but you need always think with who you are raising atm because vs set you're dominated with 2 OC+FD. And remember always play draws with position and better if they are in MWP.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
jessthehuman sums it up quite well. If you do play, then play it in a way that makes it look like you have a hand, so if the draw does hit you should still get action, with a bit of luck a bluff monkey will hand you a full stack. Chasing draws is fine, at the right price, but if you play it my way you will take a few hands down with just the draw.(BTW I do exclude gut shoots) Like any hand the situation is always diffrent but there is always a basic way to play, so use a bit of common sence, like chasing a draw on a paird board wont end well.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: United States
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 123
Like i always say it just all depends on the situation. Meaning how many chips you have who your playing against and what the bet was. I dont usually call on draws if its more then 10 percent of my chip stack.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
In reviewing the responses.
I come back to an old piece of advise I once read, it is on the theory that poker is based around good decisions and bad decisions and nothing else.
Now, expanding that idea - each time you make any decision (call, fold, raise, shove) think about what you're trying to achieve. The reason a lot of fish flat-call draws without any odds (pot or implied) is because they aren't thinking about long-term EV or what they are trying to achieve.. they are simply playing to a hand.
Each time you make a move, think about why you are doing it. Are you shoving your FD because you think there's a reasonable chance they'll fold ? (lots of fold equity). If you're calling a small pp pre-flop (set-mining) why are you doing it? Does your opponent even have enough big blinds left to make your call profitable in the long run ? Do you think you're likely to stack your opponent if you do make your hand?
I think it's the single best bit of advise, regarding good & bad decisions : simply think about what you are trying to achieve and what makes that the BEST decision you can make. Be rational - NOT emotional. And use maths - remember to take not of not just what's in the pot - but what the likely action is at later streets - and very importantly - how much of a stack the villain still has left behind - remember - implied odds diminish along with your opponents stack - there's no point chasing sets, flushes, straights, etc - if your opponent is short stacked - because you literally can't be paid off enough to make it long term EV.
I think it depends but going all in with a draw is stupid specially when your the one calling. But if your chasing draw with opponents betting small then you can chase a draw until flop.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by noynoy: I think it depends but going all in with a draw is stupid specially when your the one calling. But if your chasing draw with opponents betting small then you can chase a draw until flop.
This doesn't exactly make sense.. Going in with a draw is certainly not necessarily stupid.. in fact - it's often the best move - as it avoids tricky decisions on the turn. Also -in regards to calling an allin with only a draw - its purely down to EV. If you're getting the pot odds to make it +EV then you call - every time - in cash game anyway.
Joined: Sep '08
Location: United States
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 115
depends on what stage of mtt or the size of pot and also how many outs u have many diffrent things factor i cant say yes or no on this...but risking ur whole stack is dumb
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Philippines
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1011
Posted by Mudadzija: Is it a smart thing to do? I mean, if you hit a straight or a flush with an ace high, you will surely be in the money, but is it worth calling with a significant portion of your stack? I usually don't call after I hadn't hit it on turn, but when the flop brings just the two cards you need, it is very hard not to call a big bet. Do you think it is stupid to go all the way and call to the river? Is it chasing draws, described in several strategy articles as dumbass tactic?
if you know how your opponent play, after a few sessions;
