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Joined: Mar '11
Location: United States
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 19
Hi y'all. I haven't been here in a bit because been at the tables on Players Only with the 5K vip pt no deposit bonus I attained from BRM. Thanks millions for these ways to check out sites by the way. I am going to weigh in on this rigged stuff with my opinion. It is just that too, MY OPINION. I have always been told that I could be in a room with 9 other people and be read 1 sentence and asked to give an opinion. 9 would come to same conclusion and I would interpret the sentence totally different but the other 9 would be of the thought that it could be seen that way, even though it wasn't the way they saw it at first.
Okay, here goes. This tracking software y'all speak of. I kinda see each of these sites as 1 big tracking software, keeping a big record of all you have done on said site. That is why they won't allow people to legally get more than 1 account. Not even have them purge you and let you start over with clean stats across the board. Login is attached to you and all hands played at each site. The program knows what you will play, fold, call, push, or end up all in with. If anyone cares to dispute this, my late mother was a programmer who wrote programs to track statistics for a reputable insurance company. I still have many known contacts there and asked this type of question of others in the IT area and got an overwhelming yes, absolutely, that is exactly how these places operate. I have began to think you are entering a lotto type situation when entering play. Just 1 theory.
Back to the site I got the bonus at. For about 3 weeks I went on a nice roll and took that $50 in the form of 5k vip points to enter gtd tourneys to over $1100. That run lasted from signup on 4-7-11 to about 4-25-11. The next thing that happened was astonishing. I began to get taken out in the exact same way that used to happen at PS, FT, and UB even. The cards I got always seemed to be 1 card under what would be the winniing hand. I get 1010 and JJ was there. I play KQ suited AQ was there with the Q hitting the board. This happened to me 90 straight times on FT right before I finally blew my stack. (The anger way) I used this little bankroll I gained to test this once it began, and played the same tournies as they are daily set on Players Only. Low and behold, I get a stack early and get right around the bubble and even bust it 1 or 2 times. But the bustouts happen not long after. Funny thing is there are actually people on this site that speak during play and it has been noticed. These sites have IT dept that analyze everything to the nth degree. How hard would it be to write a line of code that makes a certain id# have a certain outcome? The answer is not very hard at all. It can be written and the id# simply plugged in and executed. The hands are on a loop and the same outcome happens although the RNG requests a card at any time and 1 is randomly drawn. The 1 that makes most laugh is flopping top pair with 4 to a flush also. It has become known as the kiss of death hand. I have gotten it quite frequently in the last 5 or so days. Odd is that never are blowout hands happening. Always seems to be 1 card beat as I stated.
I will not say rigged, but I do detect the odor of Whitefish that has been out of water and off ice for a couple days. By the way, that high of over $1100 is down to just under $40 and the losses are all the same timing and way. If anyone gets the PO bonus, I suggest play 2/3 weeks hard and get out. Or don't. In case any were wondering my range, it is pretty tight. Mostly won't venture too far outside top 10 late. Like I said this is from my personal experience that has befallen me, so any who chose to berate me and call me whatever people are called when they post this type experience, I apologize for what transpires afterwards.
------------ Okay. It is official. I am calling Players Only a rigged site. Bring it if you want to debate. Since the post I made I have played 3 more tournaments and was bounced exactly like I described. 1 card over me. I believe there is such a thing as variance in hands, but to be beat at showdown the exact same way time after time is inconceivable. I was taught that if it smells, looks, feels, and any other sense you want to add in like dog excrement, then it damn well is dog excrement.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
^^
Look - its like this - you can talk b******t all day, or you can purchase HEM or PT or something, track a decent sample of hands and actually proove your theory using empirical data.
It's as simple as that. There is a way - it doesn't have to be theory - so either do it, or STFU.
FYI: To my knowledge - everyone who has so far to date collected adequate samples for this kind of analyse has found that there is nothing fishy going on (hence why there's never been any massive breaking stories on the big forums etc).
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
Posted by IBT745: The next thing that happened was astonishing. I began to get taken out in the exact same way that used to happen at PS, FT, and UB even.
Fortunately I managed to turn my VIP points into some cash there and put a part of it out of the ring then. I thought it would be an advantage to ship it over to my PartyP account. Believe it or not - after my transfer to them I lost most of my SNG´s. Just 3 Points left to get my next bonus chashout and I would have to do a new money transfer to gain it --- in the same time they made a new slightly better bonus offer to me. I dont expect to take that. It´s the thing with the doggy sh... you described. It creeps into my nose, too, sometimes.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 1242
Not too much experienced in this, but some stories seem to be strange. But in my opinion I don`t see a serious sense of the sites in doing this. Party Poker for instance is listed on stock exchange - do you think they try to maximize theit profit by doing such things ?
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
Posted by MIGO14: do you think they try to maximize theit profit by doing such things ?
I´m not in the position to judge for sure _why_ this happens. But I´m very interested to find it out. I tried to establish some kind of communication with the support and I really did not expect that they would take my query for serious and I would even get an answer. I got one. An agent explained how strong their algorithms are and that it would take several times the age of the earth to crack that either way... Also "iTech Labs" had aproved their shuffling to be correct. iTech Labs? Take a break and think about it ... Is that really an independant laboratory? Astonishing, even if that wasn´t my initial question. I asked them: "Is it common to get all this bad beats with the first deposit or are they just rising up as more as I get nearer to my bonus goal?" (Too sad I also cashed out my Mobpoints to them...) You see, I just wanted to nail them at the point and get an responsible agent into a discussion about it, but obviously they are not allowed or interested in that. Then I sent them several examples of curious hands that I lost and they promised to examine them. They never really did. All I received was the same text/copy/paste sh...again, this time from another agent. At least their answers began with "Dear Mrs. Hofman...". First I am not a _Mrs._ nor is that my surename... I guess they had fun, me too at least.
This whole discussion is somewhat interesting to me because I invented poker games for several well known home computer systems in the early nineties. I quit programming when these brands died. If you still got an "Amiga" in your garage and gambling 5-Card Draw Poker on it then maybe you are damned to put paper in your ears, because the titlesong was pasted together in a sequencer with certain ripped sound samples I will not betray the titles of this games because I want to stay anonymous in public forums if possible and I dont like to get hacked again. For sure the modern software architecture is much more complex as the little object oriented routines that I wrote to get realistic results on the board. But as a former programmer I know there are several ways to achieve certain goals and I can imagine some very bad tricks, too.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United States
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 19
Jessie, this public forum allows me to purvey my thoughts and theories on subjects of a certain variety. The fact that I choose not to buy tracking software is to my detriment, but at least it was done with free money. I would put my theory based on my hands with these sites against a months, no years wages. Fact is, noone, myself included can get the sites to regourgitate the hands. I requested FT do an review of my bustout hands for a 1 month period. It included 90 tournies. At showdown, I was ahead in 89 of the hands and behind in 1. I lost the behind hand and was sucked out on on 87 of the other hands. I thought Players Only was going to be different after about 3 weeks play. Then the big sites had big brother spank their hand and lots of players flooded this site. Along about this time the stupidity started and as I said I used the winnings to see if it was a fluke or fact. I have $5.08 in acct where there was over $1100. I haven't pissed it away yet because I did manage to gain entry into a couple of placing based freerolls. They would probably say there has to be a balance to keep entry valid so I am taking no risks in that area. If Admin here dislikes my stance or statements then they will ask me to leave or silence me. Until then, I can promise you that you or noone else can STFU me friend. <-- is me being like lolipop commercial. See how many times it takes to break wall. Forget the red junk running down my face onto the ground. That isn't part of the equation.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
IBT, no one will try to squash your right to free speech here on BRM, I think Jess was just trying to point out that in his opinion: Your theory can't be validated without providing something more than anecdotal evidence. I myself also prefer the empirical.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United States
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 19
U2 Arithmajik. Rumor has it that gambling is close to pass in Texas at horse tracks and Lone Star Park is less than 5 miles from me so if that happens, I will stick to live play where a program doesn't determine my fate.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Too each his own, if you're better live than go for it. Especially if you have a knack or talent for reading people.
Live play is more fun but I hate paying the high rake, and having to explain to the table that I don't tip the dealer because, 1. I don't believe in superstition, I earn my money skillfully and 2. It's hard enough beating the inflated rake without dropping an additional buck or two of each pot.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
I found something interesting in my system, that let my face turn red tonight (not because of shame, but of rage).
For security reasons I am using also Antilogger-Software. Here are some fractions of the logdata. Unfortunately it was captured in german language. But the keywords should give you a clue what I am talking about:
Permission = 0 Action = Geblockt Description = HoldemIndicator Application Process Name = HoldemIndicator.exe Process Path = C:\Programme\Holdem Indicator\HoldemIndicator.exe Component = HoldemIndicator.exe Company = (Konnte nicht überprüft werden) HoldemIndicator.com Activity = KeyLogger (Type: 23) MD5 Hash = C33DCC232B25A34D43287B9E6A7977AA Date = 16/5/2011 - 6:18:45 PM
===========
Permission = 0 Action = Geblockt Description = StudIndicator Application Process Name = StudIndicator.exe Process Path = C:\Programme\Stud Indicator\StudIndicator.exe Component = StudIndicator.exe Company = (Konnte nicht überprüft werden) StudIndicator.com Activity = KeyLogger (Type: 23) MD5 Hash = D71D9C244F76215E5B1EAF99CA5EBA5D Date = 18/5/2011 - 4:12:42 AM
==========
Permission = 0 Action = Geblockt Description = StudIndicator Application Process Name = StudIndicator.exe Process Path = C:\Programme\Stud Indicator\StudIndicator.exe Component = StudIndicator.exe Company = (Konnte nicht überprüft werden) StudIndicator.com Activity = Infizierung durch einen Code (Type: 11) MD5 Hash = D71D9C244F76215E5B1EAF99CA5EBA5D Date = 18/5/2011 - 5:39:00 AM
======
Permission = 0 Action = Geblockt Description = OmahaIndicator Application Process Name = OmahaIndicator.exe Process Path = C:\Programme\Omaha Indicator\OmahaIndicator.exe Component = OmahaIndicator.exe Company = (Konnte nicht überprüft werden) OmahaIndicator.com Activity = KeyLogger (Type: 23) MD5 Hash = 452A87367FA6D49CEAD4B39DEEC0253E Date = 17/5/2011 - 9:41:09 AM
======
Permission = 0 Action = Geblockt Description = FullTiltPoker.exe Process Name = FullTiltPoker.exe Process Path = C:\Programme\Full Tilt Poker\FullTiltPoker.exe Component = FullTiltPoker.exe Company = (Konnte nicht überprüft werden) Unbekannt Activity = KeyLogger (Type: 23) MD5 Hash = 4AF01379D8989C08C4F57EDD0D1A9E57 Date = 16/5/2011 - 6:03:12 PM
All the indicator software in this logfile here is allowed for usage by Fulltilt. All of them are trying to log the keyboard activity and putting "alien"-code into the system when closing them. Even the Fulltiltsoftware is logging keyboard activity, copying the clipboard and taking screenshots! I could not paste that here, because I assigned to less space for my logfile in the antilogger-software. I did a new installation of the fulltilt client but the same activities showed up again. So I suppose these actions are a standard implementation.
I really wouldnt like to see "anyone" getting angry, about another push on the "rigged"-drums, but I found this could be useful information, even for the _thinktank_ in this forum.
(and yes, I still believe that some things could be rigged and maybe I am an idiot, because I am still trying to play poker for skill, instead of learning english )
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
I'm pretty sure FTP and the other major rooms would monitor a LOT of your activity since they need to try and detect the use of BOTS and other disallowed software.
Joined: Mar '10
Location: Denmark
Age: 58 (M)
Posts: 9
I don´t use tracking-programs, therefore no thoughts about that ! BUT the eternal question about rigged pokersites......... WHY would a site (eg. PokerStars) risk their base of existence, by RIGGING their programming ? WHAT would be the MOTIVATION ..??? Do they make money on this imaginary rigging..? NO ! They make money when we play their games. The more we play, the more $ they generate ! They don´t need to rig anything..... I find it extremely funny, when a novice post threads about a rigged micro-stakes game he played ... Cmon.. lots of logic in rigging a 2.20$ MTT..The site really makes a huge profit by rigging ??? Wake Up ! The site dont care who wins (or looses), they just generate their rake... no need to risk the entire reputation of a site, WHEN THERE IS NO GAIN IN DOING THIS..... Every time i see/read posts or articles about rigging-conspiracy, I laugh inside, thinking - Oh Man, another DONK who lost his bankroll, crying "It wasn´t my fault, the site is rigged.." THERE IS NO MOTIVATION FOR A SITE, TO RISK THEIR REPUTATION, BY RIGGING ANYTHING. They (the sites) can only LOOSE by rigging games. The big sites makes millions of in rake, why should they risk loosing this money-machine, by rigging some games ? If somebody can tell what a poker-site will gain by rigging anything, PLEASE TELL US, otherwise go cry somewhere alone, rethink your way of playing poker, or stop playing freerolls/micro mtt´s. How many TOP-PLAYAS have you seen talking/wondering about rigged sites ? - NONE ! They play the game, and the best has positive ROI....-or maybe they are in on the rigging-conspiracy --- RIGGING IS TRUE, and Elvis P. is alive...
P stars and f tilt are both rigged for action, P stars gaming commission based in the Isle of Man actually allows deal manipulation???????? yes allows it just as long as the cheated deal is for a random player.
Poker Stars also point blank refuse to test using long number probability which is a cast iron way of proving the deal one way or the other.
If were dealing honest i sure would do this type of test where as i fI wanted rigged deals to both level the playing field and create greater rake i would as stars have done and fight such tests.
------------ All stock market companies use what ever powers they have to max there profits, Dont be so green
In the case of online poker deal manipulation is actually allowed
------------ There motivation is millions of dollars extra rake as the money keeps going around and around minus 5% rake each time of course
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
Posted by spOOn1965: Every time i see/read posts or articles about rigging-conspiracy, I laugh inside, thinking - Oh Man, another DONK who lost his bankroll, crying "It wasn't my fault, the site is rigged.."
I can only talk for myself, but I know that I am losing with the cards I decided to play. How can one be so superficially?
Considering everyone is a DONK, because he takes a look behind the curtains - that should make me laugh.
This is a thread about _rigged software_ - not about _rigged sites_ in common. For your concerns there is this special comedy thread, just a tip (the jokes are by far better there!)
-------
I just want to point on the risks, the riggs and the hacks that are out there, putting shades on online poker. If a site is rigged by the owners or not, that I never stated before in such a manner (just read exactly what I wrote). Also I am not sure about all reasons behind it, but IMHO I believe it is a good thing for all of us to keep a serious discussion about these behaviors alive. Not to risk the reputation of the sites, but to contribute them and a positive future for online gambling and to send all these criminal creatures to hell, that are lurking in many corners, looking to suck the dollars out of our purses!
I wanted to discuss these things in this forum, because I (me as a "Poker Novice" LOL!) would like to benefit from others with similar experience or even an insider background.
Again: I just want to know what´s going on and that is my good and legal right!
------------
Posted by jessthehuman: I'm pretty sure FTP and the other major rooms would monitor a LOT of your activity since they need to try and detect the use of BOTS and other disallowed software.
wouldnt be the worst reason ...
What´s your opinion about the indicator software trying to infiltrate the system with it´s own code?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by Doberhain: What's your opinion about the indicator software trying to infiltrate the system with it's own code?
Generally speaking I am extremely anti spyware/adware/etc - I don't like the idea of it at all. However - in the case of poker rooms - I'm willing to make an exception - considering the dollars that are (potentially) at stake- I think an added layer of security is probably warranted/justified. I'd say this is one of the few instances I would be OK with spyware.
Odds are odds and if the deal was genuine you want donks calling with 24 suited. But as sites rigged for action they hit far more often. Now whos the donk
------------ Has the oil industry collapsed???/ no . Are these guys cheats??? Yes. All big business cheats where ever it thinks it will get away with it and poker is no acception.
why do you think they fail to test for long number probable outcome ???? because they cheat the deals.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
No site online is totally 100% random,so if you take if that way every site is "rigged". However,the most obvious ones are Ongame sites,Entraction Sites and Stars (Stars becomes "real" stat wise in the long run,but they do obviously favour specific players in specific tourneys,meaning everyone will get "favoured" in the long run once,you could also call that the "hot/cold seat system" ).
I remember some time ago there was a thread on 2+2 proving ongame is rigged after an analyze of about 120 million hands that were played there,I will post the link should I ever find it again.
I asked them: "Is it common to get all this bad beats with the first deposit or are they just rising up as more as I get nearer to my 
(Too sad I also cashed out my Mobpoints to them...) You see, I just wanted to nail them at the point and get an responsible agent into a discussion about it, but obviously they are not allowed or interested in that. Then I sent them several examples of curious hands that I lost and they promised to examine them. They never really did. All I received was the same text/copy/paste sh...again, this time from another agent. At least their answers began with "Dear Mrs. Hofman...". First I am not a _Mrs._ 
nor is that my surename... I guess they had fun, me too at least.
)
in rake, why should they risk loosing this money-machine, by rigging some games ?
