Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
OK - just like the thread title - I wanna talk about rake.
On March 1st I made a reload of $200 for PKRs reload bonus - I cleared this last night. It took 50,000 PKR points to clear - this means in the last 18 days I've paid a total of $500 rake.
In this particular example I've received $200 (40%) of the $500 back as per the T&C of my bonus. However, another bonus will not be available again until the end of April and I have no rakeback - so until then I will lose all rake.
Now - here's my point.. We often have a tendany to think of rake in terms of 5% or 10% and this makes it sound considerably small..
But consider it as a cut of your Gross profi - leaving you with the net profit.
For example if I 6-table nl25 for 2hrs I generally pay around $20 in rake. I might end up 1 buyin up for the session. This means my GROSS profit for the session was actually $45. However, I lose $20 to rake. This means I have lost 45% of my total profit for the session ! That's a huge chunk..
Now consider a losing session of 1 buyin. This would mean my gross profit was actually -$5, however I also had to pay the room 400% of my loss - so my loss for the session was magnified by 400% - so my losing session was actually $5 which could for all intents & purposes for 6-tabling nl25 be considered break-even play - however, instead I'm down a buyin..
Then take SNGs - I generally 6-table these as well and may play as many as 30 in a session. Let's give a generous SNG ROI of 15%. Let's say I play 30 * $5 sngs with a 50c fee. And maintain a ROI of 15%.
30*($5 * 15%) = $22.50 profit
30* 50c in rake = $15
This means after winning $22.50 for 30 $5 SNGs I am left with a total of $7.50 profit. So this means I lost 67% of my total profit for the session ! That's fucking huge.. And that's with an ROI of 15%
If we take the same situation for an ROI of 5%:
30 * ($5 * 5%) = $7.50 30* 50c in rake = $15
So if you are a winning player - but you only have an ROI of 5% then for every 30 games you play you will LOSE 1.5 * your buyin..
Regarding higher stakes:
Cash game pros are able to make a lot more profit because of one MASSIVE factor @ high stakes Ring games = CAPPED RAKE !
Now.. I just want to say - to everyone complaining about rigged poker etc.. Think about what I am saying here - even MOST winning players would have an ROI under 10% - meaning they are STILL LOSING MONEY - simply from the rake/fees.. Online poker is EXTEMELY difficult to beat.. not only do you need the skill & discipline * bankroll management to stay ahead of your competition but you also need to be able to beat the rake.. Beating poker rake is perhaps the biggest hurdle between being a losing/break-even player and one that is turning a profit..
So I want you all to start think about rake in terms of a percentage of your profit rather than a percent of the pot.. This is how poker clients try and make you think - in terms of 5% or 10% when in reality the actual cut they are taking is much more likely to be 30%-100% of your profit !
In many cases rake is actually turning a winning player into a loser.
lastly I just want to say - my BIGGEST regret in online poker is that I took a whole bunch of NDBs making my rakeback options void for all the major poker rooms.. If i could do it all again I'd go back and sign up for RB not a crappy $20 freebie..
If you're serious about playing poker for a long time- then believe me - what you get out of rakeback FAR outweighs an upfront $50
To re-iterate I'm a lowly nl25/$5-$10 SNG& MTT player and I've paid $500 rake in the last 18 days alone.. Imagine how much better rakeback is than a free $25 once you've reached nl200+
So be sure to check out BRMs rakeback offers too when you're considering your next bonus !
The other thing is - reload bonuses- I keep hearing people say "i've never deposited my own money" or "I'll never deposit my own money" or "I want to build from $0 t $XXX". WHY? What are you trying to prove ??? Do you have no idea you're actually throwing money AWAY by not depositing..
reload bonuses are generally the HIGHEST form of rakeback you can get.. For example @ PKR if you get rakeback it is 27% however reload bonuses are calculated at 40% rakeback !!!
So anyway, hope this wasn't too boring and provided food for thought. And I hope whilst the maths is scary - it at least helps people (rigtards in particular) understand how hard online poker is to beat and why.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
+1 for Jess
Good story, offcourse skill is number1 but a good deal is 2nd. From the first day i started poker i allways searched for good deals, i calculated that $25K of my roll comes from deals so if i hadnt these deals my roll wud be $25K smaller. And also with a deal smaller then the 1 i have my roll wud be $10K-ish smaller.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by doomdy: +1 for Jess
Good story, offcourse skill is number1 but a good deal is 2nd. From the first day i started poker i allways searched for good deals, i calculated that $25K of my roll comes from deals so if i hadnt these deals my roll wud be $25K smaller. And also with a deal smaller then the 1 i have my roll wud be $10K-ish smaller.
WOW ! That's such a massive difference. I'm guessing from what I've seen of your other posts you are talking about a pretty massive portion of your roll in both of those cases.
Yeah - rakeback/bonus is probably the single most important thing in being a winner at online poker..
I know form previous posts you've made (especially when you were looking for a new room after V2.0 PKR) how imprtant deals are to you..
I've emailed PKR previously re:RB and they've agreed to give me RB IF I can maintain $500+ rake /mth I'm yet to do this consecutively enough to recieve it .. but I hope to soon.. If PKR don't honour this I will obviously take my business else where.. But I think they will stick to their word - the CS @ PKR is excellent IMHO.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 852
Love the thread Jess, there's a reason I don't deposit at least on FullTilt, because I already have 4 years ago when I began playing and therefore am not qualified for any deposit bonuses. I don't play for any reason but to hone my skills and stay sharp at home with online play, and am challenging myself to build a roll from nothing, just to prove to myself that I, not Chris 'Jesus" Fergesun can also do it. I am making myself stick to strict guidelines, and when I do move out of the freeroll stage of this challenge, I will remember this thread. I think rake is a very important, and overlooked aspect of the game, that as well as BankRoll management. Hope my lowly "freeroll" post's don't bother you too much, I do enjoy many of your threads and qould hate to think that mine are a nuisence to you. Gl @ the tables all
Joined: May '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 1362
An interesting tread. I have always suspected that things were kind of this way, but I have never actually counted on them.
Just as you, I started of with a lot of NDB:s, thinking, that if it turns out I am a losing player, I havn't lost anything myself. And if I am a winning player, Hey! That's awesome!
Now, I have started to realise I might have made a profit if I hade gone for the rakeback from the beginning. But, on the other hand, I hardly didn't understand what rakeback was, back then.
Now I have found a place on the prima network that gives me sweet reloadbonuses every now and then, and has offered me a rakebackdeal of 30 %, that I haven't taken yet, since I have some other sh*t I have to clear. + As you write, readloadbonuses can be better than rakeback, and as long as I don't come up to your volumes in playing, I can get by on them.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 1242
Very interesting and helpful post. I will consider this when I decide to sign up for a new room (I am just starting with online poker, but do it slowly and careful). But I guess some rooms never offer rakeback deals (e.g. Titan). So I can use the NDB with these romms, can I ?
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Great thread, you did an awesome job breaking down the math succinctly and clearly, and brought up an excellent point. I've always thought rakeback was better but never thought of rake in terms of a % of profit, that is an excellent way of looking at it and I'm glad you pointed me in that direction. I'm a relatively new player and you have helped solidify a key principle to profitable play.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
After reading doomdys post about the beta sharkscope that allows you to exclude rake.. I thought I would give this thread a bump
------------ Oh also - since writing this thread, I am please to say I finally have a proper RB deal with PKR - 30% I had to fight hard for it and have payed PKR well in excess of $15,000 rake.. But finally, I have a nice deal there and no longer have to rely SOLEY on reloads for any sort of RB.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
Interesting thread Jess, but I am not fully understand ( cos my English is bad ), do you mean fee for casino is too expensive ? so our profit lost big part just for fee ? Or NDB and DB is not good for us, better we just deposit, dont care with bonus ?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by Serpang: Interesting thread Jess, but I am not fully understand ( cos my English is bad ), do you mean fee for casino is too expensive ? so our profit lost big part just for fee ? Or NDB and DB is not good for us, better we just deposit, dont care with bonus ?
They key points to take are this:
* Poker rake may only be 5% or 10% of the entrance fee, or pot. However - it can easily represent 40%, 50% even 100% or more of your profits.
* Having some kind of 'deal' is very important - by this I mean a regular rakeback deal, reload (re-deposit) bonuses, loyalty schemes, etc.
* Taking No Deposit bonuses hurts you in the long run. Generally (with a few exceptions) - if you take a no deposit bonus, you forfeit a rakeback deal - as an example, I took a $25 no deposit bonus at PKR - since then, I have raked roughly $15,000 - if I had 30% rakeback on that, it would be a LOT more than the $25.00 I took. So in my example, we're talking about ($15,000.00 * 0.3) vs $25.00.
Posted by jessthehuman: * Taking No Deposit bonuses hurts you in the long run. Generally (with a few exceptions) - if you take a no deposit bonus, you forfeit a rakeback deal - as an example, I took a $25 no deposit bonus at PKR - since then, I have raked roughly $15,000 - if I had 30% rakeback on that, it would be a LOT more than the $25.00 I took. So in my example, we're talking about ($15,000.00 * 0.3) vs $25.00.
Thanks for this post, and quantifying something I've long suspected.
I've been meaning to start a topic about this, because of my reluctance to move on from playing freerolls. I don't feel I can beat the rake. To be consistently that much better than your opponents, to compensate for the losses due to rake, seems an uphill battle.
My argument for suspecting that rake is a major factor, was all the free money that I've been given (in forms of bonuses and freerolls). Seriously; so far I've been "given" over $200 ($25 NDB, $40 MobSafe, the rest freeroll wins). Where else do you get these sort of gifts without risking any money of your own? (I've never deposited, and generated almost no rake at all so far, in less than 2 years, since starting to play poker).
What's the catch? Who's paying for that?
It's easy to conclude that it's the players, and therefore rake...
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Brazil
Age: 36 (F)
Posts: 13
You give here an example $15.000*0.3 vs $25 but thats not correct! you didn't make $15.000 rake to get the $25 for free on the other hand you could play on a other site to play!
But further i like youre post a lot because i have the same problem with the rake and fee on a several sites and then special on the Ipokernetwork so it seems to very good but after all you lose because the rake/fee.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 3361
Jess, this was very educational for me and you worded it all in a way where it is easy for one to understand. I just was asking about ROI and Rake not long ago. I know the point you made about depositing because I always watch what the site is offering as a bonus for deposits. There's times where my BR is been stable or even increased a bit, but I've made a deposit just so I can gain the bonus. You can always withdraw when you want, but you can't always get the type of bonus being offered.
I still need educated in thoroughly understanding all advantages of Raake, ROI and player positions, but with threads like this one you posted I always learn a little more. Also, read these types of posts more then once or twice if your a beginner like myself. Thanks! God Luck to All!
Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4873
Posted by GISA101287: You give here an example $15.000*0.3 vs $25 but thats not correct! you didn't make $15.000 rake to get the $25 for free on the other hand you could play on a other site to play!
you just missed the point
if you plan to play longer on the site, its better to take rakeback than no-dep bonus. no dep bonus are good only for short-term (usually for as long as the bonus is cleared) or for people who cant/dont want to deposit on the site.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
Very Nice post Jess!
I hadn't seen this thread before, but after the Doomdy Sharkscope thread, I'm glad you bumped it up. Very clear and very surprising in the end. It reminded me I had Rakeback somewhere on your and Doomdy's advice last year. Just checked it...and it's on PKR! lol
I never play there because I don't like the 3D and even the "light" version doesn't appeal to me. But you said in another thread they will be creating a "regular" client? Just make a quick post about it when this happens, as I don't check very often on PKR, ok?
Thanks again for making a clear and informative post about the numbers. Great Stuff!
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
The rake is important of course, and now most of the sites have turned into weighted contributed system, its even worst. Its very hard now for the micro ring players to get a good rake back, and almost impossible to clear a bonus either its first deposit or reload.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by IslandJack:
I never play there because I don't like the 3D and even the "light" version doesn't appeal to me. But you said in another thread they will be creating a "regular" client? Just make a quick post about it when this happens, as I don't check very often on PKR, ok?
Apparently it is due mid-late March.. Could easily be delayed longer, you know how these things are.. But I'll put a thread up any way, when it's out.. Maybe I'll write up a little review for it.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by jovicakralj: Sharkscope have new feature where you can see how would your graph be without rake. Its amaizing and sad Here is mine,,,
Yes, that is what prompted me to bump this thread - Doomdy created a thread about the new beta SS.
My MTT graph isn't a whole lot different, I think about an extra $1.3K or so excluding rake, which isn't huge. My SNG graph though.. it's the difference between being a loser for $1.2K and being a winner for $400.00 !!
Here is mine,,,
