Joined: Nov '12
Location: Canada
Age: 63 (F)
Posts: 589
I think there is lots of great information thought out here, I mean the math involved with not only poker but rack back and s**t makes me think about my long term poker game if I am going to continue playing I really have to factor this in. Or I will continue to make deposits and eventually go broke and probly start saying ''poker is rigged'', LOL , when really it is just my game plan that is rigged Have a great night folks
Joined: Feb '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 2372
And a good shameless bump too.
I don't play cash very often as I am a losing player on it, but as an example, I recently got $10 NDB with Party. Now, I played micro-stakes cash (and bust out without profit), yet pokertracker shows me paying $28 rake in those few days. So compare that to a site that will do a RB deal and what you could potentially make.
It could be the same on MTT's too, which are my primary game.
I often end up playing for minimum payout (history so you don't think im a nubtard: I am a winning player returning to the game after stopping due to family time but now needing a second wage for things like xmas presents, and having zero roll, building up slowly and can be seen to bubble going after free chips), and you can buy in for say $1.00 + 10c and win $1.30 which is like, paying 50% rake. I know this changes as you go up the paytable though. (and that 10c rake for potentially a few hours play is good).
I should add though that NDB can be good in certain circumstances. For instance, I couldn't afford to deposit at all but in the short time I have been playing again I have built a roll of:
$60 on 888 and still clearing. £30 on gala and still clearing. £5 on poker770 (kinda leaving it whilst I clear others). $1.20 on party (yeah I know lol, gonna stay away from buyin games whilst their prize giveaway freerolls are on). $15 rolling BR to use as deposit now for such things as FTP deposit for tickets promotions. 275 (sic) points on BRM which will pay off when I start maximising profits on here (atm I am too busy catching up on strategy etc since I have been away).
All this in the evenings as I work full time and commute 3 hours a day.
I am not greedy, my aim is to grind out £1000 to year end, so I can split 50% to me and the rest as a BR for following year.
None of this would be possible without NDB and it is a winner all round situation: I gain a decent BR. Poker sites gain more rake than they give in NDB + more traffic. BRM gain (I presume) a cash figure or % of my rake.
Joined: Nov '12
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 4675
G'day Jess
I would like to say that you are absolutely right. I have looked at this issue in the past and I came to the exact conclusion which you point out her in your post. I know most people never think about this type of stuff, they want to just believe what they are told because it is easier then really sitting down and doing the math for themselves. Many people if given the choice will always take the easy path and just hope it is the right one.
It was an interesting post mate. I already know it but I still liked seeing I was not the only one who new the dirty little secret
Joined: Mar '10
Location: Greece
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 505
hi Jess really a very interesting read all that you wrote i missed this post the 1st time you wrote it 2 years ago, but i'm glad that it came up again in the forum and caught my eye. Seems like you've nailed the subject of rakeback, which is something that not many of us take into deep consideration when making a game plan.
I've strarted to think more deeply about the Rakeback effect recently, when i made a game plan of 20 DoubleOrNothings on PartyPoker in $3, $6 & $11 buy-ins. I was surprised that i needed to go 12-8 or more, just to get a profit of about 1 buy-in, whereas without rake or with a good rakeback i could be ok without significant loss when going 10-10
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1410
Very interesting read I have to say! I've been going threw a few of those $0.50 DoN SnG's where the rake is $0.05. I've had a bad run so I'm basically break even at the moment. But here's the funny thing when I looked at it after reading this thread: I've played 67 games, finished ITM in 38 of them, that's a 57% win rate. Anyways, I'm up $0.70 at the moment but if the rake wasn't there I would be up $4.50. This means that the rake has eaten up $3.80 of my actual winnings, that's a little bit over 84%!!! That's just amazing really... Kinda makes you think.
Well, I only play at PartyPoker and from what I can find, they don't offer any rakeback deal which is a shame. The one thing is maybe some of their promotions that are great with some free prizes and what not. I'm currently going through 4 $2 bonuses where I need to collect 16 points to release the full bonus, that's $8 in rake so basically that bonus is for 25% rakeback. I have 4 of those bonuses at the moment so I hope I'll be able to clear all of them.
But do you guys think that it would be possible to make some sort of a deal with PartyPoker to get some rakeback? I'm a micro stakes grinder so I don't give them that much rake but still. Maybe they'll be willing to offer me 10% rakeback if I produce $50 rake per month? What do you guys think?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by erru9107: This means that the rake has eaten up $3.80 of my actual winnings, that's a little bit over 84%!!! That's just amazing really... Kinda makes you think.
Yeah, it does. Rake is brutal, it is seriously underestimated. For the majority of of slightly losing players, rake is the reason. And for players that are winning/break-even type players, who know they have an edge over the average player at their stakes but they're just struggling to move up to another limit, once again, rake is the reason.
------------
Posted by erru9107: Well, I only play at PartyPoker and from what I can find, they don't offer any rakeback deal which is a shame. The one thing is maybe some of their promotions that are great with some free prizes and what not. I'm currently going through 4 $2 bonuses where I need to collect 16 points to release the full bonus, that's $8 in rake so basically that bonus is for 25% rakeback. I have 4 of those bonuses at the moment so I hope I'll be able to clear all of them.
But do you guys think that it would be possible to make some sort of a deal with PartyPoker to get some rakeback? I'm a micro stakes grinder so I don't give them that much rake but still. Maybe they'll be willing to offer me 10% rakeback if I produce $50 rake per month? What do you guys think?
Not sure about how it is, but Party was always known for it's promotions / reloads / etc. Pretty much every 'bonus' offered where you're rewarded based on the rake you pay, is a form of rakeback. Just be sure to take up all the reload offers (deposit bonuses) and any other promotions that are offered, they all contribute to 'rakeback'. People often pride themselves on not reloading / depositing, this is stupid. Reload bonuses are free money / rakeback.
This thread explains exactly why I love home games with friends so much more than online or even casino games... It's not that hard to have chairs, tables, chips and organize cash games or SnGs with friends, even multi-table tournaments if you have enough space.
Something I never understood about rake is why isn't there more competition between rooms? I mean a room could offer say 5% (or even less) rake to try to attract (and probably succeed) more players. So why don't they? Nobody is loyal enough to a brand to say no to better rake... ^^
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by TheMachineQC: Something I never understood about rake is why isn't there more competition between rooms? I mean a room could offer say 5% (or even less) rake to try to attract (and probably succeed) more players. So why don't they? Nobody is loyal enough to a brand to say no to better rake... ^^
A "race to the bottom" would be lovely, for us poker players.. From what I understand - back in the 'poker boom / Moneymaker' days - there *was* a lot more competition; sites offering very low rake, no rake, huge rakeback and more than anything else - awesome bonuses (regular reloads with great rakeback implicit).
But online poker hasn't been a growing industry for years now, the small-medium sites have been dying and it's only the sites at the top now that have decent traffic.. In the end - Pokerstars, perhaps one of the worst sites for Rakeback, Bonuses, etc - already has the lions share of the online poker traffic..
There's no competition because there isn't enough demand for it.. If poker was to Boom again, then I believe we would see more sites coming up with better rake deals to entice players.. But at the moment I don't think many sites can afford it and the ones (one??) that can doesn't need to do it, they already have all the customers.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
jessthehuman is right. At the moment for me if online poker isnt declining then it is stable, in terms of numbers of players. The big ones have the clients they want and the small ones struggling to operate. So that area will remain as is, unless new rooms make offers for new players which will not last for too long. It will be like a bonus offer with an expiry date, something that i have seen in a couple of rooms.
, when really it is just my game plan that is rigged 
