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  6-Oct-11, 08:20   #1
Crazy Hand... 0 
MIGO14 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 1240
Would like to here your opinion on the following hand:

Was playing NL10 cash game, 9 max
Sitting at the button with about 45 BB (bought in for 50 BB)
My hand: 9,9
All folds, Co raises to 3,5 BB, I call, Blinds fold (put Co on A high or PP)

Flop comes 4, 9, A rainbow
Co raises with 7 BB, I call
My thoughts: As presumed before, I put him now defenitly on A high. Decided not to raise, because I thought that I would get more value by calling and not scaring him away by reraising. In adition, no danger of straights or flush here. For sure he can have PocketRockets, but I didn´t really thought that he had these.

Turn comes: A
Giving me Fullhouse.
He shoves, I call.
My thoughts: I am in front of all other hands he can hold, except PocketAces and A 4 + A 9.
Again I came to my first conclusion, that he is holding A high, giving him Trips.

River comes: A

S**t...............
So, I lost against quad Aces !???
No................
He didn´t had an Ace
He is showing.................
10, 10
And I loose to the better FH Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap!

What did I wrong ?

Would like to see your thoughts on this.

     
  6-Oct-11, 17:19   #2
  -2 
DaCapo71 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2196
Crazy hands are not the problem. But the players which play with absolutely crap hands are the problem. And the most poker rooms give them a ultimate donk insurance...

     
  6-Oct-11, 17:33   #3
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 42 (F)
Posts: 13709
It was one of the hands that can give big tilts Smile
You have him till turn and then comes the card with the worst outcome.
Had a loss like that 3 days ago but it was omaha h/l.
But at the end a loss is a loss no matter what Smile
gl next time

     
  6-Oct-11, 20:20   #4
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 6668
From the dynamic of the hand i didn't think he could have quad aces, to be frankly i was expecting something like pocket 7's...

I think you played the hand decent especially since we don't know if you had history with that player...

This kind of situations happen all the time Sad

     
  6-Oct-11, 22:31   #5
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1859
I think your first mistake is that you bought in with 50BB.
Playing short-or midstacked always gets you in such horrible spots with medium pocket pairs.
Your stacksize is also the reason why your preflop play is wrong - you dont get good enough odds to setmine. You can only invest 5-6% of your stack to setmine based on implied odds.
If you were fullstacked flatcalling would be totally fine though.
So for this reason,either fold or 3bet this hand. If you 3bet and he shoves on you it depends how aggressive the guy was. If he was kinda tight,you can fold it and he happy about it since he will usually have AQ+ and TT+ (even AQ might fold there though if he thinks you play a standard midstack strategy (which is super tight)).
If he was a loose fish then you can probably call seeing he will also do this with lower pockets and will have overcards often enough.
Obviously as played there's nothing you can do

     
  7-Oct-11, 06:11   #6
  0 
DaMessiah666 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Spain
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1487
When you have the nuts in the flop but you want to squeeze your opponent, sometimes turn & river hits you very hard, so you just assume there are only two possibilities: you are going to win or lose a lot of money.
Alternativelly, if you shove in the flop when you have the nuts, even if you are called and lose, your EV is better and sometimes it's better win a smaller pot than risk for a bigger one.

     
  7-Oct-11, 09:43   #7
  0 
MIGO14 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 1240
He guys, thanks for your comments on this.
So what I ve learned is, that buying in with a half stack is wrong, if I want to setmine.
Thanks for this BeMyATMplz.
BTW: were did you learned your poker strategies ?

@DaMessiah: I didn´t want to push him out of the pot, so I just called.
For sure river can hit hard, but chances were very low to loose it and he already pushed on turn so I can´t fold there I think.

     
  7-Oct-11, 11:36   #8
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by MIGO14:
BTW: were did you learned your poker strategies ?


Biggest online poker school (surely not allowed to post name here),but most of all there are several training sites.
You have to pay for your membership on training sites,but it's definitely worth the money in the long run Blink
I'm also staked + coached by a highstakes SNG reg so that surely helps as well Tongue

     
  7-Oct-11, 14:28   #9
  0 
TUNGUSKANO 

Joined: Jul '11
Location: Brazil
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 130
man the crazy hand is the worst hand. you can do all but in the end no.
i realize that you are good player but i do not have a goo luck. no now.
relax, you wiill well succed in the next one. Agree Agree Agree

     
  7-Oct-11, 23:32   #10
  0 
fcumred 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1238
Personally, I would have re-raised him pre flop to make sure he wasn't trying a steal. If he shoves, you can fold.

Then after the flop, I would most certainly have moved over the top and gone all in. With only a pair of 10s there is little or no way he can possibly call. His 7BB bet after the flop was a feeler bet to test the strength of his hand, and by flat calling you gave him free cards. A raise is absolutely imperative.

After the turn, then you are in trouble, because had he got an ace then he's either hit, or drawing to a full house and isn't going anywhere. There was no way he would fold if he believed you didn't have an ace, and the flat call after the flop suggests that you didnt.

With regards to those that say you bought in shortstacked, I fail to understand what difference that would have made. Buying in bigger doesn't change the dynamics of that hand, and had you bought in for 200BB then you'd have lost 200BBs. Its simply one of those hands you couldn't get away from.

I certainly wouldn't say you played the hand badly, and the runner runner aces certainly screwed you, and 99% of the time you'd have made the right calls. Its just unfortunate that this time it didn't work out for you.

Its simply one of those hands that if played differently you could possibly have walked away with a small profit earlier on, but like everyone ( me included ) if I think I can get his entire stack then I am going to go for it, and sometimes the sites just decide that rather than you taking the opponents stack, its much more fun to reward your opponent instead and give them the miracle that you need.



------------
Posted by MIGO14:

So what I ve learned is, that buying in with a half stack is wrong, if I want to setmine.


Not necessarily the case though. You have to take into consideration more than just the size of our stack. You need also to look at :-

1) Position - How many people are likely to follow you and what should you do if a player after you re-raises or acts in a way that means your hand strength suddenly isn't maybe as strong as you think against 2 or more opponents. Flat calling a 5BB raise on the BB with everyone else folding is fine, but flat calling 5BB from early position with maybe 6 players to act is suicide because if they re-raise you then you are stuck in no mans land, and the person re-raising has you squeezed tight. You have no option than to either shove or fold and with 9 9 its very difficult to do either with any degree of confidence that you are making the right move

2) Aggression of other players - If players think they can walk all over you, then they will. If you are on the BB and an aggressive player keeps raising, then sometimes you have to put a stop to it and move back at them. Its not foolproof. I can't tell you the number of times I've had someone stealing my BB and when I move back at them its the one time they do actually have a hand. Thats where player notes come in handy. Keep notes, look at who tries to steal blinds, look at whos strong and weak and play them in a way thats completely opposite to their style. If they play tight, you play aggressive, it they are aggressive play tight and fire back at them when you have the cards.

4) Player stats - Invest in some good software that will give you information on players. If they are aggressive you know to avoid them with marginal / weak hands. Stick to the big guns, and punish them heavily when you hit ( which is exactly what you want when setmining ).

Shortstack strategy isnt about the size of your stack and only playing monster hands, as some would have you believe. Its about maximising your winnings and cutting down your losses. When you win hands you get a nice return on your money, when you lose you don't blow your bankroll.

IN short, think of it this way, had you shoved after the flop and he'd folded, OK you maybe hadn't won as much as you would have hoped, but you'd have picked up 12BBs which is 25% of what you've invested. Moving to a table with 200% and picking up 25% of that in one hand is bloody hard to achieve...

Edited by fcumred (Friday, October 07, 2011 @ 23:48 GMT)


     
  8-Oct-11, 00:05   #11
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by fcumred:
With only a pair of 10s there is little or no way he can possibly call.


And this is exactly the reason why raising here would be just bad.
Why would you ever want him to fold there?
He has 2 outs,so a chance of about 6% to improve.
You want to get value from that,getting him to fold however will do nothing but lose you value.
The way the hand went was the most perfect it could get,it was just an unlucky event of turn and river...


     
  8-Oct-11, 00:21   #12
  0 
fcumred 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1238
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by fcumred:
With only a pair of 10s there is little or no way he can possibly call.


And this is exactly the reason why raising here would be just bad.
Why would you ever want him to fold there?
He has 2 outs,so a chance of about 6% to improve.
You want to get value from that,getting him to fold however will do nothing but lose you value.
The way the hand went was the most perfect it could get,it was just an unlucky event of turn and river...



I see what you are saying, and in many cases I would agree, but in this instance I like to follow the Gus Hansen philosophy that he advocates so strongly in his book "every hand revealed".

His theory is that if you always bet when you are ahead then your opponent is the one doing the thinking, and if rather than set up traps which can go disastrously wrong ( as happened here ) you reduce the risk of lucky suckouts. Hansen always would lead out with the best hand, he would always put players to the test. Simply because at the point he knew he was ahead he wanted the door slamming shut and the chips in his hand rather than a chance of more chips but also a greater chance of losing some.

This theory is also following, in many ways, by Phil Hellmuth who advocates that unless you have a big hand, you look how NOT to get too involved in hands, and he will only put his chips in when he has the absolute nuts, and even then its done to prevent suck outs. WHen however you hit big, as in hitting sets, then you put the lot in and make them work for their win. There is no way Hellmuth or Hansen would have let someone suck out on them in the way that happened here. Thats why they are pros....

Many pros will bet aggressively when they have big hand, not because they want the value, but because they want to drive their opponent out the hand and take down the pot whilst they are ahead.

Whilst flat calling with the set does indeed mean better value, it also increases the risk of suckouts and many pros would rather take the pot early and win lots of smaller amounts than try trap plays which on most occasions mean they win huge pots, but occasionally gets them into real trouble.

     
  8-Oct-11, 00:39   #13
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1859
You always have to think in terms of value though.
This can also be compared with people mistakenly thinking they need to get people to fold their draws.
In reality however you want to get value from them and make them pay too much based on their outs.
If this happens it is more profitable in the long run to give them the oppotunity to draw,as long as they are willing to pay more than what they'd be "allowed" to pay.
Obv. you get sucked out something,but poker is a game of the long run,and not just a few hands.
If one knows he will play poker for 10 hands in his life I would agree that taking the safe route and take small pots down would be best.
However,much of your longterm value comes from people drawing on you for the wrong price.

And I would also disagree with comparing live-players play with online poker.

People would agree that daniel negreanu for example is one of the best players in the world,however,he's getting owned @ online highstakes.
The play at online poker is just way different than live poker.
Live poker has deeper stacks,players play loose because game-speed is slower,and so on.

In general,letting opponents draw,or even let them fire their chips in in marginal situations is the best thing that can happen to you,it will always be profitable in the long run.
It really doesn't matter if you get drawn out when the opponent drew outside of pot odds,even if it happens 10 times,it will always be profitable longterm

     
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