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  8-Feb-12, 05:52   #1
Very interesting spot in a 10 man STT Party SNG 0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Really, really interested to get some input on this hand. Will post results after a few comments.

For ease of discussion, I'm last to act, I've posted the 400 chip BB and have 90 chips left. I either fold and have 90 left, or call for my remaining 90.

***** Hand History for Game 11403554338 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $1 USD Buy-in Trny: 66921651 Level: 5 Blinds(200/400) - Wednesday, February 08, 00:05:34 EST 2012
Table Turbo #2532818 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5/10
Seat 6: Durrr_Dwan ( 1,860 )
Seat 3: kixerq ( 4,530 )
Seat 4: sevendooce79 ( 490 )
Seat 8: sexylexy1010 ( 10,640 )
Seat 9: z10408749749 ( 2,480 )
Trny: 66921651 Level: 5
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sevendooce79 [ As 5c ]
Durrr_Dwan is all-In [1,860]
sexylexy1010 calls [1,860]
z10408749749 folds
kixerq is all-In [4,330]

Edited by retribution (Wednesday, February 08, 2012 @ 05:55 GMT)


     
  8-Feb-12, 06:13   #2
  0 
MicroMachina 

Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 657
first off im giddy i got to one of these before the results are posted. ok so unless im missing something its a insta call. unfortunately it sucks but if you only have 490 chips you either just got screwed the last hand or u have blinded down way way way way too much.

But since you said its interesting ill say they both have A2 and iits a 3 way chop? Only because im thinking you're afraid one or both have an ace and your playing two players with only a 3 for a chance to win. oh they both have kk and ace on the river?


     
  8-Feb-12, 08:18   #3
  0 
mishu2009 
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Romania
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 74
i saw this kind of post several days ago, off course there were another cards but with an A too, so my oppinion with your 90 chips left u can go all in with A 5...for that kind of stack are good cards, cause if u folds the blind will eat you and u will necesary go all in with other cards but with 90 chips and maybe worst cards then theese ones

     
  8-Feb-12, 09:12   #4
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
The thing to look at, is the action pre-flop. Basically the spot is that we've got 3 people all-in, with the biggest stack. If big stack knocks both out, we get itm. With a hand like A5, and a shove and 2 callers, we need to evaluate how our hand will fair against these other 3. Since it's almost a sure thing someone has another ace, our odds decrease significantly. Really all we can hope for is a straight.

Personally I think that as counter-intuitive as it may seem, we gain more equity ICM wise by folding, rather than calling. I wanna get a few more thoughts and then I'll post the results Smile

     
  8-Feb-12, 10:03   #5
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
i put durr dwan on something like aq suited or a mid to low pocket pair, and i think the big stack definitely has a pocket pair, easy fold.

     
  8-Feb-12, 10:10   #6
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 2847
VERY interesting hand.

First reaction (intuitively), I would fold.
As you say, the big stack could take them both out, and you´d be in the money.
A5o seems like a weak hand to me in this case.

I then ran the thing through Pokerstove.

Against 3 players and "Random" hands, you´re actually ahead, but that´s not realistic.
Putting them all on 50% range (would be AA to A2o, all pairs, and everything in between), you´re behind everyone in terms of Equity.

50% is a HUGE range and you´re still behind everyone.

So.....
Definitely a fold. Blink

Edited by IslandJack (Wednesday, February 08, 2012 @ 10:14 GMT)


     
  8-Feb-12, 10:41   #7
  0 
Chartoule 
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1261
Hi guys.

Instant call. The bigstack still have to call for almost 3500 chips and win the hand. Fold here means we are out. Call here means we are almost out. Reason enough to call.

     
  8-Feb-12, 12:36   #8
  0 
jbrooksie 

Joined: Oct '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 442
holdemresources ICM calculator says that you are all-in with any two follwing an UTG push and another player in the pot

ICM Nash Calculator Results

     
  8-Feb-12, 12:45   #9
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1477
Go all in, waiting for what ? LUCKY with 90 chips ? so hard journey Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile , but that's not mission imposible, Usually if luck you will win with 490 chips and A5 os. No better way, I think.That's last change to wake up Smile

     
  8-Feb-12, 12:45   #10
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
If I didn’t knew the amount of chips you had, I would say you should fold, but taking in consideration you are so short that you will not be able to do anything more if you decide to fold, and seeing an A in your hand, I would definitely insta all-in. Besides, you have kicker 5, which increases your chances of getting something at the table. You know you are behind, Durrr_Dwan must have a nice pair and that’s why he sent all-in, sexylexy1010 wants to end the game quick and with any ace or figures he also goes, and probably the best hand is with kixerq. Whatever the result was, the best move for you was going all-in. With 90 chips left, you wouldn’t do anything.

     
  8-Feb-12, 17:54   #11
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Posted by jbrooksie:
holdemresources ICM calculator says that you are all-in with any two follwing an UTG push and another player in the pot

ICM Nash Calculator Results


Nash isnt good for calculating ICM spots because the default ranges are just way off from what people would shove in reality (wtf @ UTG shoving 11%...make that 40%+ and you can start a proper discussion).
As for the hand,I would surely fold this,especiaqlly in a $1,where people are donking each other out for fun and you can make money by doing nothing. I would simply fold this hand,and fold any2 afterwards,even AA (if you survive the auto-all-in next hand that is).
The chance of moving up to the money is just way bigger than your possible gain from winning a hand afterwards.
Also,for this hand,you are crippled and your hand will play super badly vs. the ranges of the other players. With a hand like T9s I would consider calling here,but A5o multiway is just super bad,especially if you estimate their ranges as being relativly tight.
I have calculated it vs. ranges of ~27%/12%/10% (they are probably even tighter,especially the 3rd player) and you have barely less than 8% equity with A5o vs. these hands. The chance of getting ITM by folding is bigger than this. Besides,to justify calling with the same logic,you would have to be guaranteed to get ITM at least if you win the hand (which you are not,in fact your stack would still be quite tiny).

     
  8-Feb-12, 20:32   #12
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
***** Hand History for Game 11403554338 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $1 USD Buy-in Trny: 66921651 Level: 5 Blinds(200/400) - Wednesday, February 08, 00:05:34 EST 2012
Table Turbo #2532818 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5/10
Seat 6: Durrr_Dwan ( 1,860 )
Seat 3: kixerq ( 4,530 )
Seat 4: sevendooce79 ( 490 )
Seat 8: sexylexy1010 ( 10,640 )
Seat 9: z10408749749 ( 2,480 )
Trny: 66921651 Level: 5
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sevendooce79 [ As 5c ]
Durrr_Dwan is all-In [1,860]
sexylexy1010 calls [1,860]
z10408749749 folds
kixerq is all-In [4,330]

sevendooce79 very very grudingly folds Sad

sexylexy1010 calls [2,670]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Ts, 9h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
Durrr_Dwan shows [ Kd, Kh ]a pair of Kings.
sexylexy1010 shows [ Ks, Qh ]a straight, Nine to King.
kixerq shows [ Ad, Qc ]high card Ace.
sexylexy1010 wins 5,340 chips from the side pot 1 with a straight, Nine to King.
sexylexy1010 wins 5,980 chips from the main pot with a straight, Nine to King.

Durrr_Dwan finished in 5 place.
kixerq finished in 4 place.

sevendooce79 blinks repeatedly and then cheers Dollar Dollar Dollar

As expected, I was absolutely crushed. Ran the hand through SNG Wiz, and yes believe it or not it IS a fold. I think this is a really interesting hand, because it illustrates how razor thin some situations can be. In this case, we gain significantly more by folding than by calling, despite how much of our stack is already invested.

I think the hand would have run out a lot different had their just been 1 shover I would have instantly called a very wide range, even lower than A5.

On another note, what does everyone think of kixerq's call with AQo? If personally would be folding, given the fact that if big stack takes out durr, we're almost certainly guaranteed a cash.

Edited by retribution (Wednesday, February 08, 2012 @ 20:39 GMT)


     
  8-Feb-12, 21:04   #13
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Posted by retribution:
On another note, what does everyone think of kixerq's call with AQo? If personally would be folding, given the fact that if big stack takes out durr, we're almost certainly guaranteed a cash.


Depends on the shover and the flater.
a normal open shoving range @ the games I play in UTGs situation would be probably 40%-45% (I personally would go even wider),the flater I'd just consider as fish seeing hat the flat is pretty bad no matter if he has 32o or AA..he should be overshipping .
So I'd call in his situation as well. Cashing is one thing but gaining future equity by winning the hand and having great chances of winning 2.5x more than "just" cashing would be worth it.
He probably also doesnt think you will be folding here,at least I wouldn't even think a second of anyone playing $1 SNGs knowing the ICM factor here. If he thinks you're calling,this is an easy call for him

     
  8-Feb-12, 21:25   #14
  0 
jbrooksie 

Joined: Oct '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 442
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by jbrooksie:
holdemresources ICM calculator says that you are all-in with any two follwing an UTG push and another player in the pot

ICM Nash Calculator Results


Nash isnt good for calculating ICM spots because the default ranges are just way off from what people would shove in reality (wtf @ UTG shoving 11%...make that 40%+ and you can start a proper discussion).


Guess I should stop using Nash then Big Smile

     
  8-Feb-12, 22:54   #15
  0 
MicroMachina 

Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 657
Wow, u nailed the crap out of the hand BeMy! Kudos Man.

Well read and played Retribution. This is why these are so good to post. I myself already said how i would play it , but its great to know the correct way to play it.


     
  9-Feb-12, 00:03   #16
  0 
IceFingers 
Joined: Nov '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 102
Before even reading the thread. As to the OP question. Its an easy call. Your post commited with your blind. In reality, you should not have even got that low unless you just lost a pot, once you get to less than 10 BB you should be in shove fold mode.

------------
Well after reading the whole thread looks like you made the right call. But ii gotta say, 90% of the time i see that as a loosing play. Because if you did fold, didnt make the money, you are auto all in next hand. And your still in the same position.

I still think i would of shoved there, but nice to be situationaly aware Big Smile

Edited by IceFingers (Thursday, February 09, 2012 @ 00:10 GMT)


     
  9-Feb-12, 09:35   #17
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by retribution:
On another note, what does everyone think of kixerq's call with AQo? If personally would be folding, given the fact that if big stack takes out durr, we're almost certainly guaranteed a cash.


Depends on the shover and the flater.
a normal open shoving range @ the games I play in UTGs situation would be probably 40%-45% (I personally would go even wider),the flater I'd just consider as fish seeing hat the flat is pretty bad no matter if he has 32o or AA..he should be overshipping .
So I'd call in his situation as well. Cashing is one thing but gaining future equity by winning the hand and having great chances of winning 2.5x more than "just" cashing would be worth it.
He probably also doesnt think you will be folding here,at least I wouldn't even think a second of anyone playing $1 SNGs knowing the ICM factor here. If he thinks you're calling,this is an easy call for him


Well, I'd say that shoving ranges may or may not be correct, depending on the player. A lot of players are quite content to watch themselves blind out, hoping to coast ITM. What's wierd is, even though their shoving ranges are tighter than they should be, their calling ranges are wider as well. It's like the exact opposite of range polarization.

It definitely was a tricky situation, thus why I posted it.

     
  9-Feb-12, 17:40   #18
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Posted by retribution:

their calling ranges are wider as well.


Depends on the situation for sure. Most fishes for example will still fold Ax for 10BB eff. BvB to shoves while they should snapcall (unless the specific situation is kinda ICM heavy). I'd agree with you for ICM spots though,because they simply dont care about ICM (I needed ~2K SNGs before reaslizing it's important too,even in MTSNGs Big Smile )

     
  10-Feb-12, 10:20   #19
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 2847
Posted by retribution:
Durrr_Dwan shows [ Kd, Kh ]a pair of Kings.
sexylexy1010 shows [ Ks, Qh ]a straight, Nine to King.
kixerq shows [ Ad, Qc ]high card Ace.
sexylexy1010 wins 5,340 chips from the side pot 1 with a straight, Nine to King.
sexylexy1010 wins 5,980 chips from the main pot with a straight, Nine to King.

Durrr_Dwan finished in 5 place.
kixerq finished in 4 place.

sevendooce79 blinks repeatedly and then cheers Dollar Dollar Dollar

As expected, I was absolutely crushed. Ran the hand through SNG Wiz, and yes believe it or not it IS a fold. I think this is a really interesting hand, because it illustrates how razor thin some situations can be. In this case, we gain significantly more by folding than by calling, despite how much of our stack is already invested.

I think the hand would have run out a lot different had their just been 1 shover I would have instantly called a very wide range, even lower than A5.



YES !!! Big Smile Thumbs Up

Goes to show, once again, that those people who replied on "feeling" got it all wrong.
The ones calculating equity in this case got it all right. Blink
(except for the Nash thing, not applicable in this case)

PokerStove (it´s free) is what "the big boys" all use, and it´s effectiveness is is proven once again.
Kind of tedious, but I´m trying to get off my lazy a55, once again. Confused

Love these posts Retribution. Thumbs Up


On another note: AQ
Easy Fold. Blink

Had to edit to add this:

It´s an SnG...not a Tournament.
Getting in the money is your ONLY concern.
Once you´re there, you can fight for 1st place.

Basic sng strategy.
BASIC.
Extremely basic.
Brainwash yourself until you understand this.
B a s i c ..... Aww crap!
So basic, it´s just the most basic thing there is.
Basic beyond belief!
There is nothing more basic than this in a SnG.
Bubble Basic.

B.A.S.I.C.
Be Always Sure In Cashing

lol Big Smile

Edited by IslandJack (Friday, February 10, 2012 @ 10:33 GMT)


     
  10-Feb-12, 11:12   #20
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by IslandJack:
Posted by retribution:
Durrr_Dwan shows [ Kd, Kh ]a pair of Kings.
sexylexy1010 shows [ Ks, Qh ]a straight, Nine to King.
kixerq shows [ Ad, Qc ]high card Ace.
sexylexy1010 wins 5,340 chips from the side pot 1 with a straight, Nine to King.
sexylexy1010 wins 5,980 chips from the main pot with a straight, Nine to King.

Durrr_Dwan finished in 5 place.
kixerq finished in 4 place.

sevendooce79 blinks repeatedly and then cheers Dollar Dollar Dollar

As expected, I was absolutely crushed. Ran the hand through SNG Wiz, and yes believe it or not it IS a fold. I think this is a really interesting hand, because it illustrates how razor thin some situations can be. In this case, we gain significantly more by folding than by calling, despite how much of our stack is already invested.

I think the hand would have run out a lot different had their just been 1 shover I would have instantly called a very wide range, even lower than A5.



YES !!! Big Smile Thumbs Up

Goes to show, once again, that those people who replied on "feeling" got it all wrong.
The ones calculating equity in this case got it all right. Blink
(except for the Nash thing, not applicable in this case)

PokerStove (it's free) is what "the big boys" all use, and it's effectiveness is is proven once again.
Kind of tedious, but I'm trying to get off my lazy a55, once again. Confused

Love these posts Retribution. Thumbs Up


On another note: AQ
Easy Fold. Blink

Had to edit to add this:

It's an SnG...not a Tournament.
Getting in the money is your ONLY concern.
Once you're there, you can fight for 1st place.

Basic sng strategy.
BASIC.
Extremely basic.
Brainwash yourself until you understand this.
B a s i c ..... Aww crap!
So basic, it's just the most basic thing there is.
Basic beyond belief!
There is nothing more basic than this in a SnG.
Bubble Basic.

B.A.S.I.C.
Be Always Sure In Cashing

lol Big Smile


Yeah, you're fighting for that first 20%. Once you've got that locked in, you can worry about getting the other 30% for first Tongue

     
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