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Interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. FWIW - there were around 100 runners in this, down to about 80 at this stage, still very early in the game. I had an early triple up with a monster hand.
This is a $22 Buyin MTT on PKR. Villain is unknown, although he ranks fairly high in PKRs MTT rankings.
Interestingly - I am chip leader and he is 2nd in chips - not just our table, but of the whole game.
I don't have many reads on him, I've only been with him for about 1 orbit, from what I've seen he is fairly loose and very aggressive. But that is over a small sample.
Table #43410861 - Tournament #25143281 Table #1 Starting Hand #2009676901 Start time of hand: 17 Feb 2012 15:05:34 Last Hand #2009676521 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 25 / 50 Button is at seat 7 Seat 1: PissPage - 4,505 Seat 2: drinugrech - 2,190 Seat 3: brrmoto - 4,000 Seat 4: jessthehuman - 12,439 Seat 5: 007dobby - 4,000 Seat 7: FaceDFear - 740 Seat 8: milanpetrovic - 11,728 Seat 9: QuantumSlit - 2,830 Seat 10: GhostStriker88 - 1,960 Shuffling Deck Moving Button to seat 8 QuantumSlit posts small blind (25) GhostStriker88 posts big blind (50) Dealing Cards Dealing [T s][T c] to jessthehuman PissPage folds drinugrech folds brrmoto folds jessthehuman raises to 150 007dobby calls 150 FaceDFear raises to 740 (all-in) milanpetrovic raises to 1,350 QuantumSlit folds GhostStriker88 folds jessthehuman calls 1,350 007dobby folds Pot sizes: 2,445 Pot sizes: 1,220 Dealing Flop [9 d][8 c][4 h] jessthehuman checks milanpetrovic bets 1,555 jessthehuman calls 1,555 Pot sizes: 2,445 Pot sizes: 4,330 Dealing Turn [9 h] jessthehuman checks milanpetrovic bets 8,823 (all-in) jessthehuman has requested more time
------------ Oh also - the shorty/allin is very tilty and could literally be shoving any 2 cards here.
Edited by jessthehuman (18 February 2012 @ 02:33 GMT)
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I would put this guy on a suited high cards, his re-raise is weak, just enough for you to fold as the first raiser, but you called. He obviously wanted to isolate that tillty guys all in so he re-raised it. But... After your checked on flop, he think you missed the flop, (AK for example) and he tried to make you fold with that small bet, but you called again. I think he had some kind of str8 draw on flop, smaller pair in hands or a pair of nines. As i told, he thought he had you after you chacked the turn. Nine is a scary card even for an overpair in hands and he know that AK or any some simillar hands must be an easy fold for you, so he push all in. I think he was yours 80%, 20% that he really have that nine, A 9, K 9 suited... So will you tell us what you do and what he has?
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Posted by kwasac: So will you tell us what you do and what he has?
yes I will show the rest of the hand once a few people have commented.
One aspect you've missed here though - I am chip leader and he is 2nd place, we're literally the two biggest stacks - I don't really need any more chips at this stage - I stand to lose a LOT more than I stand to gain. If I fold here - I am stil around 4th in chips overall. If I call and win I am obviously miles ahead as CL - and if I call and lose I am basically out of the game.
------------ villains shark scope:
milanpetrovic 1,102 $7 $16 44% $7,364 Tilt 81 PKR Sch. Only
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One aspect you've missed here though - I am chip leader and he is 2nd place, we're literally the two biggest stacks - I don't really need any more chips at this stage - I stand to lose a LOT more than I stand to gain. If I fold here - I am stil around 4th in chips overall. If I call and win I am obviously miles ahead as CL - and if I call and lose I am basically out of the game.
That's the way I'm seeing it. To be honest, I don't think I'd have got myself into the situation in the first place and would have folded to the re-raise. Yes he's probably trying to isolate the short stack but it's early in the tourney and if you fold you only lose 150 and you're still in a commanding position.
Even as deep into the hand as you are I'd still probably fold. It's still early and you still have quite a stack.
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I'd say villain has either complete air, ie: AT or possibly an overpair. Could be possible he has a mid PP like 77+. His line is curious OTF and OTT, and he COULD just be trying to push you out of the pot since you checked back twice. Really, unless he's got a monster like JJ-AA, you should be good. His raise definately seems like an isolation move, and is the only reason I think he probably has a decent hand. I'm gunna put him on At+/77+, which I think you've got pretty well crushed. The only problem is, if you call and he has you beat, you're in a really bad spot with around 12 BB left. If you call and win, you take the tourney lead and can smack around the table.
It's sketchy, but I'd call and throw something if he shows JJ+. If it was the micro, I'd say he'd prolly show something really stupid like Q9, K9 or a raggy A9.
To be honest, I'm conflicted about your line. I really don't like checking back twice on that board, just take control and bet it out as your hand is pretty vulnerable. Also pre-flop, I don't know I'd be calling his 4-bet. Either ship it or fold, by just calling you're inflating a pot that you're likely going have to fold if the flop comes with any face card.
Edited by retribution (18 February 2012 @ 04:36 GMT)
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My thoughts exactly! I'm thinking he has high cards, but of course could be wrong. Since player is Allin instead of araise only is the reason I feel player is holding AK or AQ. Also, it does cross your mind since it's just you and him that he may have JJ or QQ so I probably would have folded since so many chips involved.
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You describe him as very aggressive with rather loose hands. From my own experience players like that with a big stack have a tendency to "slow roll" monster hands, trying to get more players into the hand feeling unbeatable. Since I don't know how he plays a monster at this stage of the MTT I would have folded to the reraise preflop. I think it's just not worth the risk with your hand. The half pot bet on flop after you checked fits my assumption in my opinion. So I would put him on KK+. If he would have had a rather loose hand like A9 I guess he would have bet pot or all in on flop since you said he played very aggressive. After all its just a guess, we have too less solid information about that player.
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ya tough one, usually id fold, but since ive let my b@lls drop a bit, Im calling more often, if you win...you are dominating, if you lose, well, drop a few more bucks and play again Im still learning tho, but i have learned its better to bust(even bubble) to get the stack for the 1st place win, then to limp into the money curious to what you did and honestly, i woulda folded, i hate going against the other big stack wait til you have the nutz
Pretty weird situation. Usually this early with such a big stack, I would have tried to avoid hard decisions like this and fold to the re-raise pre flop. But this guy CAN have almost any two hearts, pockets pairs, A-9, A-8 suited even maybe 6-7 or 10-7 suited so it's pretty hard to tell. He could also be on a stone cold bluff with no draws and just overcards. Most plausible hands beat you at this point, though, wich makes it a good bluff if it's a bluff.
Hard decision. I'm not sure what I would do there, but this ugly all-in overbet tells me he's probably not that strong, and seems to be trying to overplay me. I would probably call at this point because there's already 25% of my stack in the pot, and because it's early in the tournament. If you lose at this point, considering your pretty healthy bankroll, it's not that much of a big deal, and if you win, you're pretty much guaranteed a seat on the final table. As you told me yourself, MTTs are top heavy, I would also take that into consideration.
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Just my thoughts explained a little more:
Pre-flop: I never fold here to his isolation bet, however - I am mostly just set-mining with 1010. The idea being I can call the preflop raise and fold the flop and still be 2nd in chips and if I hit my set the potentional pay-off is huge.
Flop: This is where I stuff up, to be perfectly honest - I really didn't think about how I was going to proceed on a board under 10, I was really expecting at least 1 over card. At this point, I am out of position and the range I am facing is quite large - villain is a decent player, capable of having lots of hands in this spot. I want to exercise pot control and check it to him. Main reason being - If I bet and he re-raises I am basically forced to fold.
Turn: Now I am in a really awkward spot - another9 falls - villain is almost never betting a 9 on the flop and he knows it's rarely a card I have too. Once again, pot-control villain is in the same boat as me, we both stand to lose a huge chip count over a marginal hand. I honestly think it's quite likely to get checked down at this stage. When villain shoves allin - I think I am probably either way ahead or way behind. Another think to take into consideration is the bet on the flop - you can't bluff a locked pot, villain is smart enough to know this, so whatever he was holding - he believed if he got me off the hand, then he had the allin likely covered.
Ultimately I think I got myself into a bad position because I didn't have a plan to proceed on a board less than 10 high. I only ever planned to set mine the 1010 hand and then felt forced into calling flop bet. I should have either folded to flop bet or otherwise made my commitment there and shoved.
I think this hand is a perfect illustration of not having a plan and ending up on the wrong street with no idea of whether commitment has occurred yet.
To those saying things like "don't want to limp into the money" etc - this is not on the cards, even if I fold the turn, as I say - I'll retain around 4th position in chips.. i.e; I'll stil have a monster stack. And this isn't late-stage where you need to take chances, this is about 30minutes into the game - absolutely no reason yet to be butting heads with another giant stack in a marginal spot.
I'll post the rest soon.
------------ Table #43410861 - Tournament #25143281 Table #1 Starting Hand #2009676901 Start time of hand: 17 Feb 2012 15:05:34 Last Hand #2009676521 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 25 / 50 Button is at seat 7 Seat 1: PissPage - 4,505 Seat 2: drinugrech - 2,190 Seat 3: brrmoto - 4,000 Seat 4: jessthehuman - 12,439 Seat 5: 007dobby - 4,000 Seat 7: FaceDFear - 740 Seat 8: milanpetrovic - 11,728 Seat 9: QuantumSlit - 2,830 Seat 10: GhostStriker88 - 1,960 Shuffling Deck Moving Button to seat 8 QuantumSlit posts small blind (25) GhostStriker88 posts big blind (50) Dealing Cards Dealing [T s][T c] to jessthehuman PissPage folds drinugrech folds brrmoto folds jessthehuman raises to 150 007dobby calls 150 FaceDFear raises to 740 (all-in) milanpetrovic raises to 1,350 QuantumSlit folds GhostStriker88 folds jessthehuman calls 1,350 007dobby folds Pot sizes: 2,445 Pot sizes: 1,220 Dealing Flop [9 d][8 c][4 h] jessthehuman checks milanpetrovic bets 1,555 jessthehuman calls 1,555 Pot sizes: 2,445 Pot sizes: 4,330 Dealing Turn [9 h] jessthehuman checks milanpetrovic bets 8,823 (all-in) jessthehuman has requested more time jessthehuman folds Pot sizes: 2,445 Pot sizes: 4,330 FaceDFear shows [9 c][A s] milanpetrovic shows [A h][K d] Dealing River [5 c] Pot sizes: 2,445 Pot sizes: 4,330 milanpetrovic has One Pair: 9s milanpetrovic wins 4,330 from side pot #1 with: One Pair: 9s FaceDFear has Three of a Kind: 9s FaceDFear wins 2,445 with: Three of a Kind: 9s VTrigger brings 4,000 to table 43410861 Seat 1: PissPage - 4,505 Seat 2: drinugrech - 2,190 Seat 3: brrmoto - 4,000 Seat 4: jessthehuman - 9,534 Seat 5: 007dobby - 3,850 Seat 6: VTrigger - 4,000 Seat 7: FaceDFear - 2,445 Seat 8: milanpetrovic - 13,153 Seat 9: QuantumSlit - 2,805 Seat 10: GhostStriker88 - 1,910 End of Hand #2009676901
There is the whole thing.. As you can see, I fold in the end and miss a pretty big chip up. However, I think I was still either 4th or 5th in chips.. I went on to come 2nd in the MTT - I maintained a healthy stack the whole way through.. Coming into the HU match, my opponent took out the last two in some massive hands and as such I was a 5:1 dog, I managed to build back to even stacks - he realised I was completely dominating him and stopped playing flops against me and just started either open-shoving or folding his hands pre. I catch AQ and call his allin and he flips AK and holds and that was it.
Regarding the hand- I was curious to see, at this stage of a game, how many people would risk their tourney life on a marginal spot like this.. In the end - I banked for most of my timer and made a crying fold.. I knew I was probably ahead - but I just couldn't justify the call - I still had a massive stack if I folded and if I called and won - the chips weren't worth as much too me than if I called and lost.
If this was 2-3hrs into the game and I had a lot less big blinds, I would snap-call btw.
My final thoughts are this: I should have made a plan for all types of flops, including 9 high boards. And I should have made a commitment decision on the flop, since I was playing out of position, I should have either committed and shoved the flop, otherwise folded. The turn spot was an unnecessary position to be in.
Edited by jessthehuman (18 February 2012 @ 06:32 GMT)
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Posted by jessthehuman: Just my thoughts explained a little more:
Pre-flop: I never fold here to his isolation bet, however - I am mostly just set-mining with 1010. The idea being I can call the preflop raise and fold the flop and still be 2nd in chips and if I hit my set the potentional pay-off is huge.
Flop: This is where I stuff up, to be perfectly honest - I really didn't think about how I was going to proceed on a board under 10, I was really expecting at least 1 over card. At this point, I am out of position and the range I am facing is quite large - villain is a decent player, capable of having lots of hands in this spot. I want to exercise pot control and check it to him. Main reason being - If I bet and he re-raises I am basically forced to fold.
Turn: Now I am in a really awkward spot - another9 falls - villain is almost never betting a 9 on the flop and he knows it's rarely a card I have too. Once again, pot-control villain is in the same boat as me, we both stand to lose a huge chip count over a marginal hand. I honestly think it's quite likely to get checked down at this stage. When villain shoves allin - I think I am probably either way ahead or way behind. Another think to take into consideration is the bet on the flop - you can't bluff a locked pot, villain is smart enough to know this, so whatever he was holding - he believed if he got me off the hand, then he had the allin likely covered.
Ultimately I think I got myself into a bad position because I didn't have a plan to proceed on a board less than 10 high. I only ever planned to set mine the 1010 hand and then felt forced into calling flop bet. I should have either folded to flop bet or otherwise made my commitment there and shoved.
I think this hand is a perfect illustration of not having a plan and ending up on the wrong street with no idea of whether commitment has occurred yet.
To those saying things like "don't want to limp into the money" etc - this is not on the cards, even if I fold the turn, as I say - I'll retain around 4th position in chips.. i.e; I'll stil have a monster stack. And this isn't late-stage where you need to take chances, this is about 30minutes into the game - absolutely no reason yet to be butting heads with another giant stack in a marginal spot.
I'll post the rest soon.
There is the whole thing.. As you can see, I fold in the end and miss a pretty big chip up. However, I think I was still either 4th or 5th in chips.. I went on to come 2nd in the MTT - I maintained a healthy stack the whole way through.. Coming into the HU match, my opponent took out the last two in some massive hands and as such I was a 5:1 dog, I managed to build back to even stacks - he realised I was completely dominating him and stopped playing flops against me and just started either open-shoving or folding his hands pre. I catch AQ and call his allin and he flips AK and holds and that was it.
Regarding the hand- I was curious to see, at this stage of a game, how many people would risk their tourney life on a marginal spot like this.. In the end - I banked for most of my timer and made a crying fold.. I knew I was probably ahead - but I just couldn't justify the call - I still had a massive stack if I folded and if I called and won - the chips weren't worth as much too me than if I called and lost.
If this was 2-3hrs into the game and I had a lot less big blinds, I would snap-call btw.
My final thoughts are this: I should have made a plan for all types of flops, including 9 high boards. And I should have made a commitment decision on the flop, since I was playing out of position, I should have either committed and shoved the flop, otherwise folded. The turn spot was an unnecessary position to be in.
Well thought out, definitely illustrates the need to always have a plan. I hate to harp, but I REALLY have to disagree with the whole "set mining" justification. Realistically, you've turned a 3bb investment into a 27BB investment by calling his re-raise. Given the dead money that the shorty puts in, you're looking at calling off an extra 1200 into a pot that's only around 2000. You're getting less than 2 to 1 not exactly justifiable odds. Again given villains action pre, you're almost always folding the flop if any face card comes or the board is particularly wet. The whole point of set mining is to exercise pot control and keep it small until the flop and maybe the turn if you plan on continuing after the flop.
*Edit* The odds of hitting a set are roughly 33% or 1 / 3 if you have a PP. Given the pot odds vs the draw odds and the likelyhood of a facecard coming and having to fold, definately let the hand go pre and make a note when villain flips his hand.
Edited by retribution (18 February 2012 @ 07:04 GMT)
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Posted by retribution: I hate to harp, but I REALLY have to disagree with the whole "set mining" justification.
*Edit* The odds of hitting a set are roughly 33% or 1 / 3 if you have a PP. Given the pot odds vs the draw odds and the likelyhood of a facecard coming and having to fold, definately let the hand go pre and make a note when villain flips his hand.
A) Odds of flopping a set are about 1/8 - so in theory, you want about 10:1 implied odds for set-mining.
B) I had to call another 1200 in chips and I could win about 12,000 (pot + effective stacks left behind) more if I hit my set - IMO this is just about perfect odds for set-mining.
------------ FWIW - I don't think I am ever folding pre in that spot - if he had isolated by shoving - I would snap fold, no way I'd risk my stack that early with 1010. But so long as he is giving me about 10:1 impied, I'm calling pretty much any pp - particularly with a pot built so large - the odds are pretty high of stacking opponent when hitting a set.
When set-mining with a smaller SPR - it's a little harder to figure your implied odds - because if villains SPR is massive - he is a lot more likely to give up on his hand if you show a lot of strength. But in a hand like this - villain is really committing himself and if I hit my set, chances are excellent that I take his whole stack.
------------
Posted by zeroster: Even as deep into the hand as you are I'd still probably fold. It's still early and you still have quite a stack.
In the end, I reached the same conclusion. Fold on flop would have been better - as it was, I was able to figure out the fold, even though a little late in the hand.
Edited by jessthehuman (18 February 2012 @ 08:59 GMT)
Ah, nice fold Jess even if you would've won that huge pot. Only good players can make folds like this one! How did you feel when you saw his AK, did you regret folding, did you ever put him on that particular hand?
I was right on the fact that he could have 2 overcards with no draw and shove there, but AK was probably the only hand he would've done that with. Very often when you're top 5 and get moved to a table with another top 5, at some point he will try to outplay you because he's feeling good about his game and it's usually with an overbet like this one. He probably put you on a smaller pocket pair or AQ I guess.
I have a question for you: Would you have done anything differently if you were holding J-J or Q-Q there?
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I had him on AK as well. He was trying to isolate the shortstack preflop, and when you got in the way and he didn't hit, he tried to muscle you off of the side pot. Can't blame you for folding, you were in a good lead before the hand, and when your tournament life is hanging on a read it makes it that much more difficult. Thanks for posting this hand.
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Posted by TheMachineQC:
I have a question for you: Would you have done anything differently if you were holding J-J or Q-Q there?
Excellent question - I was asking myself the same thing after the hand.. I think I make the same fold with JJ and with QQ+ I probably shove pre to get him off his isolating hand. If I end up in that spot - I may fold QQ, definitely call KK/AA and I think I'd probably call QQ too.. Fact is, the higher the PP I have, the more of his pp's I am beating.
Posted by TheMachineQC: How did you feel when you saw his AK, did you regret folding, did you ever put him on that particular hand?
Obviously I regretted it a bit.. However - I did actually put him on a weaker hand.. just not often enough to justify the call - but I was kind of expecting to see AK here.. That is pretty much how he played it.
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You gave no time for comments, my inital thought, its a simple iso bet, he wants HU right there.(pre) He has to bet the flop, and you could have tested with CR, when playing here I would be either betting out on the flop or CR, if not fold right there.(flop) The rest no longer matters, but looks like a desperation bet or a no respect bet. Simple overlook, I try no to over analyse hands any-more.
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Ha...ha ... Where Milanpetrovic come from ? from name I am sure east europe, especially Romanian and Bulgarian typical play : GAMBLING. If you big reraise him on flop you have change make him fold. But it 's early tourney why make your chips ( and good position ) in jeopardy ? Most dangerous of Romanian and Bulgarian is they have good instinct, lol. Before, I guest he had high card or high pair, but I am too late come to this threat.
Interesting hand. What about looking at it from milanpetrovic's perspective... Did he play this hand well? It certainly worked out well for him; it's always nice taking the most chips from a hand where you have the worst hand on the river...
Was his shove justified? He just saw 2 checks from you (the big stack). I think he showed respect to you by shoving; obviously he didn't think of you as some loose donk that got lucky to get such a big stack. He was pretty sure you would not risk your entire stack, unless you had the nuts, or close to it. But you couldn't have the nuts, because you wouldn't have checked twice... (Or would you slowplay the river out of position?)
It seems to me, the only way his shove would have failed, is if you were some lucky loose player... What do you think?
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Posted by jessthehuman: Pre-flop: I never fold here to his isolation bet, however - I am mostly just set-mining with 1010. The idea being I can call the preflop raise and fold the flop and still be 2nd in chips and if I hit my set the potentional pay-off is huge.
Flop: This is where I stuff up, to be perfectly honest - I really didn't think about how I was going to proceed on a board under 10, I was really expecting at least 1 over card. At this point, I am out of position and the range I am facing is quite large - villain is a decent player, capable of having lots of hands in this spot. I want to exercise pot control and check it to him. Main reason being - If I bet and he re-raises I am basically forced to fold.
Turn: Now I am in a really awkward spot - another9 falls - villain is almost never betting a 9 on the flop and he knows it's rarely a card I have too. Once again, pot-control villain is in the same boat as me, we both stand to lose a huge chip count over a marginal hand. I honestly think it's quite likely to get checked down at this stage. When villain shoves allin - I think I am probably either way ahead or way behind. Another think to take into consideration is the bet on the flop - you can't bluff a locked pot, villain is smart enough to know this, so whatever he was holding - he believed if he got me off the hand, then he had the allin likely covered.
Ultimately I think I got myself into a bad position because I didn't have a plan to proceed on a board less than 10 high. I only ever planned to set mine the 1010 hand and then felt forced into calling flop bet. I should have either folded to flop bet or otherwise made my commitment there and shoved.
I think this hand is a perfect illustration of not having a plan and ending up on the wrong street with no idea of whether commitment has occurred yet.
To those saying things like "don't want to limp into the money" etc - this is not on the cards, even if I fold the turn, as I say - I'll retain around 4th position in chips.. i.e; I'll stil have a monster stack. And this isn't late-stage where you need to take chances, this is about 30minutes into the game - absolutely no reason yet to be butting heads with another giant stack in a marginal spot.
If this was 2-3hrs into the game and I had a lot less big blinds, I would snap-call btw.
My final thoughts are this: I should have made a plan for all types of flops, including 9 high boards. And I should have made a commitment decision on the flop, since I was playing out of position, I should have either committed and shoved the flop, otherwise folded. The turn spot was an unnecessary position to be in.
I think this is good analysis of your own hand. I agree that the flop is where it goes wrong. Whilst there is an argument for folding the tens pre being out of position and unprepared for a low board, I think being chip leader you can afford to take a punt if you can let go of a good hand on a danger flop.
I personally would bet that flop and fold to a raise. Not that a raise would mean you're behind. I am more inclined to put the villain on a middle pair than ace high. His raise preflop is small but effective to everyone still in as there has been an all-in and he is happy to go heads up. It is standard to c-bet a middle pair if the flop is low. What can he put you on? So he might if he is really aggressive re-raise 88 or K9 on the flop. However, you would at least then know he has a hand and not air.
Tricky situation and tricky board but good decision I think to fold and keep a good stack. Congrats on second place.
As you told me yourself, MTTs are top heavy, I would also take that into consideration.
