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  12-Mar-12, 02:08   #1
Are We Too Hard on Rigtards and Newbies? 0 
Arithmajik 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1568
Hi all,

Here's a tidbit from my upcoming book entitled: "Relating to the Rigtard"

As above, I think we're being to harsh in a lot of cases. For new players especially it's natural to fear what you don't understand, so if you think you're doing the right thing and you're still losing it's seems logical to assume that the site is rigged (Note: The premise - "If you believe you are doing the right thing" Blink.

I think we should avoid insulting rigtards right off the bat. Instead we should share with them that we had some of the same reservations and fears when we first started. Then we point them in the direction of some strategy material and encourage them to do better and assure them they can do it. If we responded this way I think a lot more rigtards would end up becoming decent players and forum members.

I think the reason attempting to prove to them why poker isn't rigged doesn't work is because they often don't understand the proof and it doesn't address the real issue: They haven't yet accepted that they don't know how to play.

I'm suggesting that rather than pointing out that they suck (which is embarrassing) we attempt to provide them with educational material and let them figure it out for themselves.

Usually the insults or proofs just trigger a defensive response leading to a flame war. Which doesn't do anyone any good.

Remember: The Rigtard is somebody too.

Edited by Arithmajik (Monday, March 12, 2012 @ 02:11 GMT)


     
  12-Mar-12, 02:14   #2
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
You're probably right and I know I can certainly be guilty of being to harsh.. There has been the odd time where afterwards somebody has "seen the light" and stopped thinking in that way - and I have felt terrible for blasting them, instead of being their friend and helping them to see more clearly without insulting them.

I think the main reason I lose my patience so quickly - is because very often the sole reason somebody is a 'rigtard' is because that is their general outlook on life as well - some kind of 'victim complex' and I have very little time for this.

I simply cannot stand it when people refuse to take personal responsibility - and quite often, that is exactly what it comes down to with rigtards.

I also particularly dislike peoples lack of empirical data when making accusations and wild claims.

I also dislike it when people seem to completely fail at being able to apply a level of critical thinking to their theories and thought processes.. I just wish people would be more rational and logical. These emotional and observational based arguments and discussions just lead to no where.

But.. *sigh* you probably still are right - there is generally better ways of going about a discussion (argument) than just blasting somebody..

Occasionally in a thread, I'll start off by giving the benefit of the doubt and being polite, but normally by page 2 or 3 I'll just snap and lose my s**t lol.

You know who IS good at it though? SuperNoob - that guy is a bloody genius and 99% of the time keeps a really level head as well - I always love reading his posts - he stays on the point, rational and very often is able to emotionally remove himself as well.. Not to say I've never seen him take a dig as well.. But generally speaking - he is on the ball.

     
  12-Mar-12, 02:32   #3
  0 
Arithmajik 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1568
All good points, and I agree fully. I can relate, and am not without blame myself. I've thrown out plenty of sarcastic and unhelpful comments too.

Also, just to be clear, definitely wasn't a personal attack to anyone in particular, I think we all get agitated when we see yet another rig thread, and we all know what it's like to beat our heads against a wall trying to teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Human nature.

We're all part of the same community, and so we're all equally responsible for how it's portrayed.

Oh and 2nd that Thumbs Up for SuperNoob. You're a valuable asset and have helped me out plenty of times.

------------
Also wanted to say: Sometimes people deserve it, lol. In which case they're reaping what they sow.

Edited by Arithmajik (Monday, March 12, 2012 @ 02:38 GMT)


     
  12-Mar-12, 03:59   #4
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
No, I don't think we are. Well newbies maybe but certainly not rigtards.

If you're going to post a rig thread on a forum that's inhabited by poker players who, on the whole, believe that the sites they are playing on are above board then you've really got to expect to take some flack.

I actually feel like they're insulting my intelligence. They are basically saying "Hey guys that site you play on is rigged and you must be stupid to keep playing there."

Edited by zeroster (Monday, March 12, 2012 @ 04:05 GMT)


     
  12-Mar-12, 04:32   #5
  0 
pokershark74 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 831
good points on both sides of the arguement i personally have doubted the integrity of some sites myself and perhaps even posted some rediculous threads on here lol but have since learned the ways of the wise.

i will third that on the supernoob comment always enjoy his opinion and he speaks well aswell.

as far as my own opinion on the matter is as long as there is poker forums there will be rigtards sad but true Tongue are we too hard on them well thats tough to say. i definately agree that going about it in a more educating and supportive mannor is probably best Agree

also great thread arith Cool

     
  12-Mar-12, 05:36   #6
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by pokershark74:
also great thread arith Cool



It is a good thread.. It is something I often wonder about - in fact, I even took a 1 week ban here, from something I said in a rigtard thread.. If you dig up some of my old comments, on threads over a year ago.. I really didn't hold back - and this was before that started censoring our words here too!

:O

     
  12-Mar-12, 05:38   #7
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
Posted by pokershark74:
good points on both sides of the arguement i personally have doubted the integrity of some sites myself and perhaps even posted some rediculous threads on here lol but have since learned the ways of the wise.


Nothing wrong with having doubts. In fact, it's a good thing to have, not just in poker but in many other areas as well.

What I have a problem with is people, with no supporting evidence, presenting their doubts as facts.

     
  12-Mar-12, 06:14   #8
  0 
pokershark74 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 831
Posted by zeroster:
What I have a problem with is people, with no supporting evidence, presenting their doubts as facts.


could not agree more mate!!! makes me do this Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap!

     
  12-Mar-12, 06:48   #9
  0 
Jkkpot 

Joined: Dec '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 53 (F)
Posts: 21
Perhaps the appropriate response to "the site is rigged" threads" is to ignore the accusation and not post a response. Arguments between logic and emotion rarely find common ground, with some obvious exceptions - divorce lawyers, Star Trek etc.

     
  12-Mar-12, 06:58   #10
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by Jkkpot:
Perhaps the appropriate response to "the site is rigged" threads" is to ignore the accusation and not post a response. Arguments between logic and emotion rarely find common ground, with some obvious exceptions - divorce lawyers, Star Trek etc.


The problem with that tactic is that then there is no opposing argument presented. Those that DON'T believe poker is rigged hardly make alarmist threads about how some such site isn't rigged at all.

So, we end up with only the rigged side of the argument being presented and that may have an adverse affect on newbies to the game, who are trying to educate themselves after losing their first few deposits..

     
  12-Mar-12, 07:03   #11
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 6235
To deal with newbies is one thing, to handle rigtards another. Newbies are new to poker and we should be patient with them. But you can't be too hard on rigtards. Evil

     
  12-Mar-12, 10:43   #12
  0 
Chartoule 
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1261
Hi guys!!

Newbies is the reason of poker. Without them this engine don´t work. I don´t go for the sites and forums insulting the new players. Is bad for the system, so is bad for me. Good for he system, and good for me, is try to explain why sites are not rigged.

     
  12-Mar-12, 11:46   #13
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 2847
Excellent thread really.
I'll be reading that book "Relating to the Rigtard" when it comes out for sure. Blink

I guess after a while, the incessant threads about Online Poker being rigged kind of get to you, and I am definitely one of the guilty party in reponding quite harshly to some of those claims.
I had my "doubts" early on, but did not make any wild assumptions bacck then.
Just a "wait and see" attitude.
The fact that many take it as "fact" based on NO empirical data really gets to me after a while, and then the guns come out. Smile

But you are right Arithmajik, I believe we are too harsh.

I would prefer people had the intelligence to post threads rather as a question, as a "what do you guys think?" kind of thread, but that can't be expected from everyone unfortunately.

My take: we should respond in a kinder way, but like Jess says, if by page 2 or 3 the wild claims continue, it's not that easy to do. Stupidity can get infuriating in it's persistence.

For myself, I will definitely take this thread to heart, and do my best to provide less "agressive" answers to these claims in the future.

As to the Newbies....
All depends really.
Who is it, what does he post, is it over the top or reasonable?
(not necessarily about the rigged issue)

Despite The Internet trend, I still believe in being polite, kind, honest, especially when you are joining a community which is new to you.
So I might still respond as I have to those who do not follow basic forum etiquette in any way.
But I will think about my response before typing blindly in the future. Big Smile

Very valid issue to bring up! Thumbs Up

     
  12-Mar-12, 11:52   #14
  0 
liberesto 
Joined: Dec '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 34
no not at all, ships are rigged and they do OK. Oh chit!!!! Friggin' in the riggin'

     
  12-Mar-12, 12:46   #15
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
Your book looks interesting, can we mobsters have access to it in a cheaper way? Or even for free? After all, we all helped you with your book, with what you have read here about the subject, so you all participate in the construction of your book. Think about it!

     
  12-Mar-12, 13:07   #16
  0 
SuperNoob 

Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 4873
although i do agree we are a notorious bunch but i dont think generally we are too harsh on rigtards or newbies.
occasionally some1 gets the unnecessary brunt now and then though Tongue

opening a thread in a forum to claim a site is rigged without any actual proof (especially for people who usually dont post in that forum) and use of words like "sure" "always" "proof" "100%" "evidence""blatant" "any1 with half the brain working can see" etc is suggestive of delusional behavior.
and for most of the rigtards the strength of their belief is equivalent to a systematized delusion, so logic/reasoning/fact is the last thing that will work against them.
development of insight is kinda rare in rigtards and i dont know any full blown rigtard who has realised he was wrong.

dont think any1 wanting a genuine discussion has been bashed and even the ones claiming rigged are pointed to facts initially (depending on the 1st post though) but when they refuse to acknowledge them, not much you can do but Mobster

if these kinda threads are ignored, many newbies who read them will make wrong conclusions and this will lead to more rigged threads here or in other forums.
there are already so many articles on net "proving" poker is rigged with their crazy theories(but no proof) that are misleading new players.
being aggressive also keeps the 'potential rigtards' in check cos they know what's in the offering Big Smile

that being said i'll try to be more helpful in cases where people are willing to be helped

and thx for the support guys, i'm in tears Worship Worship Worship
i've learned lot from people here and i try to help when i can.

Edited by SuperNoob (Monday, March 12, 2012 @ 13:17 GMT)


     
  13-Mar-12, 04:49   #17
  0 
Arithmajik 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1568
@Jess: Heh heh, I'm going to have to go look up some of those old threads. Should be good for a laugh.

@Jkkpot: This is my usual strategy when dealing with the ignorant, but I see Jess's point here. People come to the forum for information so we can't leave these threads unaddressed entirely. Also, I got the Lawyer part, but why Star Trek? Is the punch line Data or Spock?

@Zeroster: Absolutely, it's dumb, and I can see why it's also insulting. Especially as it's recurrent forum spam. I was just thinking in some cases shouting "Rigged" is like a call for help from someone to proud to ask. Maybe we can try throw a few bones and see how it goes.

@SuperNoob: Succinct as always, loved the example words. You're also right about how the people who were looking for genuine conversation got it and the others got the stick. And, ha ha, you're also probably right about them rarely experiencing insight, but it's the only the only way they'll have a chance. We can't prove it to them, only provide a safe environment for them to realize it themselves. Of course, as above without letting them spout out of control trash like that LNP guy that graces the forum every so often. Lol.


     
  13-Mar-12, 05:07   #18
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
We should get a good cop / bad cop thing going and totally mess with their heads. Big Smile

     
  13-Mar-12, 10:13   #19
  0 
magatt966 

Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 3713
Posted by zeroster:
We should get a good cop / bad cop thing going and totally mess with their heads. Big Smile


lol n1..... Thumbs Up

as I use to say: never trust he good cop Cool

     
  13-Mar-12, 12:34   #20
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by zeroster:
We should get a good cop / bad cop thing going and totally mess with their heads. Big Smile

It occurs to me that we may be the ones being messed with...

All one needs to do, is start a thread with a few choice words like "rigged" or "bots", include a random bad beat hand history, and watch the forum explode into chaos.

I can see how that might be fun; tapping the glass of the proverbial fish tank, and watch the fish scatter all over the place (no pun intended with the word "fish" Blink.

If you have a superiority complex, that would be a nice double-bluff-way of satisfying it...

     
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