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  28-Apr-12, 20:41   #1
Flat Call - Fold - Shove? 0 
JackalDFL 
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 35

If nothing else this is a classic example of someone overplaying their hand.

This was a hand from very early in the tourney with blinds 10/20; After the turn I had to worry about KK QQ AQ KJ or Daimonds.


stieglitz99 sitting in seat 1 with 1990.00
tilkevanpier sitting in seat 2 with 1920.00
virtuoz2702 sitting in seat 3 with 2030.00
korall sitting in seat 4 with 3140.00
Lothur sitting in seat 5 with 960.00
japka777 sitting in seat 6 with 970.00
Dohno sitting in seat 7 with 920.00
Getulio42 sitting in seat 8 with 990.00[Dealer]
fredis123 sitting in seat 9 with 20.00
Jackal_DFL sitting in seat 10 with 980.00
fredis123 posted the small blind - 10.00
Jackal_DFL posted the big blind - 20.00

** Dealing cards to Jackal_DFL: Jc, Qc
fredis123 was disconnected
stieglitz99 folded
tilkevanpier folded
virtuoz2702 folded
korall called - 20.00
Lothur folded
japka777 raised to 100.00
Dohno folded
Getulio42 folded
fredis123 folded
Jackal_DFL called - 80.00
korall called - 80.00

** Dealing the flop: Kc, Jh, 10d
Jackal_DFL checked
korall checked
japka777 bet - 150.00
Jackal_DFL called - 150.00
korall called - 150.00

** Dealing the turn: Jd
Jackal_DFL checked
korall checked
japka777 bet - 380.00


What do you do?

     
  28-Apr-12, 21:17   #2
  0 
erru9107 
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 910
Personally, I would call seeing as you have the set and an open-ended straight draw leaving you with about 18% chance of hitting a straight. The only real danger is if you're facing AQd since your only way to win is by hitting either a full house or four of a kind wich at this point is only 14% chance.

Bottom line: You do have a strong hand with about a 32% chance of improving your hand, and for all you know, he could just be playing you or have a J and a lower kicker.

     
  28-Apr-12, 22:05   #3
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
I'm not sure about your percentages likeerru, but you do have trip J's and your in 230 to 250 chips leaving you with 630 to 650. Personally believe japka has A,K and calling based on top pair. I would have to call because if av Q comes you have the fullhouse which beats japs possible straight, but if a diamond falls jap may flush. I'm calling since you have trips. Maybe not the best thing to do, but if you call jap will realize you have something and if he puts you allin you'll know jap isn't bluffing.

So what happened?

     
  28-Apr-12, 22:17   #4
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Come out firing on the flop, instead of checking, possibly giving someone a chance at a free card.

You raised pre, you're OOP and that's a board likely to hit a raising range, which means you can buy the pot a lot of the times. Even if you get re-popped, you can flat the raise since you've got a TONNE of outs.

On the turn, I'm definitely raising. You've improved your hand and you still have lots of draws. This is the kind of hand you go big or go home with. Sure you'll lose and go broke sometimes, but for how rarely villain is showing up with AQ, you're golden to be the aggressor.

     
  28-Apr-12, 23:45   #5
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Your first mistake was calling preflop. The raise is pretty strong and there's not a great deal of hands you can hit where you know you're in front. JQ suited is sometimes nice to play if you've got position and if you've got other callers in the pot but you're first to act on the flop and for all you know at this stage heads up. I mean if the flop had come J 4 8 rainbow you would have no clue what to do. Definitely best to avoid these situations.

Should have bet the flop anyway. Not that you hand is very strong for betting out but the check-call is horrendous considering the stack sizes. You don't have odds to call for a 9 or an Ace alone when it's likely that if these cards hit you're not getting paid off. Plus he's likely to c-bet on this flop if it checks round so if you had to call preflop you should bet first as a semi-bluff. In a decent tournament a good player would fold AJ, missed pairs, A rag, and if they reraise/shove you've probably got outs.

I would never get myself to the point where I get bet against on the turn so it's hard to say what I'd do. He's got so much of his stack in there's no fold equity or a river I wouldn't call. Very hard to fold with 980 in the pot and 730 back. But then this whole hand is dumb.

Edited by awood88 (Saturday, April 28, 2012 @ 23:50 GMT)


     
  29-Apr-12, 02:34   #6
  0 
JackalDFL 
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 35
Thanks for your views. This is what I did and why;

1, It was at the start of the freeroll (freerolls might not qualify as a "decent tournament" for many. With only an $80 raise from the small blind I ruled out any made hand. This is a time where people are shoving like crazy and this was not a big enough bet to even attempt to narrow the field given the stack sizes of some on the table. I figured he had a weak Ace. When the button flat called i didn't put anyone on a strong made hand and I was seeing a flop early on the cheap with strong sutied connectors.

2. The size of japs c-bet ($150) was not convincing on that board. If he hit any pair on that board he has to bet bigger to guard against the draw. If he hit the straight he would have shoved. So Iwas pretty sure I had the read on him on a weak ace at that point. but I only called because I wanted to see what the button would do. Any aggression on his part and I was folding. But he just flat called. So now I put him on 10-9 or 10-rag

3. When the turn brought me trips and the board a flush draw, and jap still did not shove I figured he had me on a draw and was trying to scare me off. At this point I was prepared to give him credit for AK at best.
so:

Jackal_DFL went all-in - 730.00
korall folded
japka777 went all-in - 340.00

japka777 shows: Ah, 10c
Jackal_DFL shows: Jc, Qc

Caught him overplaying A-10

     
  29-Apr-12, 06:09   #7
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 6235
Don't call preflop, flop is ok. Shove at the turn is ok. We can flat call there, hoping to scuk the third player into the pot, but i doubt we will be make more chips with a call then with a push here.

     
  29-Apr-12, 07:45   #8
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
Easy fold preflop from me but i am nitty as hell, but as played offcourse after hitting that 2nd Jack you have to go all the way guessing its low limit right?

     
  29-Apr-12, 08:57   #9
  0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
i totally agree with doomdy on this one.
its early in the tourny, so you dont want to be putting yourself in tough spots so early on, especially out of position.
but once you've hit trips with the straight draw you just need to go with it. if your beat your beat its unlucky. but like you've said you caught him overplaying A10 which is not unusual for people to overplay their hands in freerolls and low buy ins.
good luck

     
  29-Apr-12, 09:05   #10
  0 
Redvulture61 
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Australia
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 155
I would fold this hand do you really want to risk it all with a middle pair?

     
  29-Apr-12, 09:21   #11
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2121
I agree with most people here. Calling pre flop is a mistake that early. QJ, KJ and QK suited are easily dominated and can get you in trouble pretty easily. You better play these hands when you have control of the pot.

But after doing that mistake, you hit mid pair and up and down straight draw wich gives you too many outs to fold. Then on the turn, you hit trip jacks (with a pretty good kicker) to go along with your draw, at this point you can't fold anymore.

     
  29-Apr-12, 14:34   #12
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1477
Posted by shokaku:
Don't call preflop, flop is ok. Shove at the turn is ok. We can flat call there, hoping to scuk the third player into the pot, but i doubt we will be make more chips with a call then with a push here.



I agree with this tactic, especially freeroll. We need collect good stake ( by give chance to third player or more involve ) when have good feeling. Lost to early ? not too bad than play too long and didn't get prize. Why we need more chips when have good chance, cause will a lot bad beat happen, if we no have enough chips, too hard...

     
  29-Apr-12, 18:21   #13
  0 
JackalDFL 
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 35
Posted by Serpang:
Posted by shokaku:
Don't call preflop, flop is ok. Shove at the turn is ok. We can flat call there, hoping to scuk the third player into the pot, but i doubt we will be make more chips with a call then with a push here.



I agree with this tactic, especially freeroll. We need collect good stake ( by give chance to third player or more involve ) when have good feeling. Lost to early ? not too bad than play too long and didn't get prize. Why we need more chips when have good chance, cause will a lot bad beat happen, if we no have enough chips, too hard...



As a relatively innexperienced player I greatly appreciate all these comments as I try to build a bankroll from nothing. I appreciate that pretty much every poker guide I have seen indicates that a pre flop fold is the appropriate response to a raise in this situation particularly for beginner players. I am embarrased to say that at this stage perhaps the strongest part of my game is short stack management Sad and so I thought getting to the turn for $230 was within my range without critically killing my chances if I was forced to fold on the turn. But I can appreciate how many of you could view that inital call as a mistake.

The last two replies struck me funny because when I was first starting this thread that was the angle I was approaching it from. I have been trying to work on maximizing the payoff on my hands so I was going to ask whether anyone thought I should have flat called to try to bring in V2. But I figured, since his lack of aggression on the button up till then, that he is only calling at that point if he hit that Jack too, otherwise he has been slow playing AQ or KJ and shoves...... or folds. But I figured if i was putting it all on the line, a win is better than the possible extra $$ and its better to try to chase him out with the check raise and be heads up if V1 calls. So ya, I felt I might have left some cash on the table, and I am not %100 sure if my analsysis was sound. So its nice to hear others view on that. Thumbs Up

     
  29-Apr-12, 19:57   #14
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8648
it is a perfect example of why i hate poker Big Smile you have so many things to worry about and no real help from anywhere...one time you go all in and win, next go all in and lose...one time you call and win, next call and lose Confused i personally would have gone all in- less headache, and added bonus of villain folding...if you go all in you always have an added advantage of catching bluffers out...

     
  1-May-12, 04:37   #15
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1477
Posted by pochui:
it is a perfect example of why i hate poker Big Smile you have so many things to worry about and no real help from anywhere...one time you go all in and win, next go all in and lose...one time you call and win, next call and lose Confused i personally would have gone all in- less headache, and added bonus of villain folding...if you go all in you always have an added advantage of catching bluffers out...


I have an additional : base on characteristic player or situation, many time we faced up to ....finally we should go all in with hesitation, not sure what card on river or what card of our opponent hand.

IF......Finally is shove....why not go early ? Make decision earlier, that hand will shove or not.

Not always, of course. it's depend...... Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  1-May-12, 05:07   #16
  0 
Dakoprince 

Joined: May '09
Location: Norway
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 3
I would go all in - you have 18 outs: 4 nines, 3 tens, 1J, 3Q, 3K and 4A - not often this odds Big Smile

     
  1-May-12, 09:08   #17
  0 
DeMoNBrE 
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Serbia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 13
Posted by Dakoprince:
I would go all in - you have 18 outs: 4 nines, 3 tens, 1J, 3Q, 3K and 4A - not often this odds Big Smile


Me too would shove and put preause on him to decide what to tdo and you had a lots of outs Dollar Dollar Dollar Dollar Dollar

     
  1-May-12, 11:10   #18
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
Oh boy, it’s always so hard to fold a triple… I think he is better than you, really, maybe AQ, KJ, K10… If this was a freeroll or a low buy-in tourney, I wouldn’t fold and would go all-in just to see him winning. If the entrance cost more than $5, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and fold, even if the thought of knowing that probably he didn’t had that straight already would keep on my head all the day. Calling here is “gosh, I knew I was going to lose, why did I made it?”

     
  2-May-12, 11:03   #19
  0 
atownshend 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: New Zealand
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 87
It would be good to put the two players on possible ranges are TJ, KJ, Q9 in their starting hands. These types of flops hit many cards in a wider range, there are 18 possible cards that could complete a staight or flush with the a wider range holdings so you would definitly have to shove to make any drawing hand pay.

     
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