Joined: Oct '10
Location: Canada
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 204
i was wondering a good method with these mtt i do really well but cant final table or make first i wanna know some secrets that will help me make the final push i need to win these core 100k depositer freerolls on pokerstars to win a nice prize please any help would be great.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
With MTT the difference between finishing in the money and finishing on the FT / top 3 is generally aggression and risk.
I used to min-cash a LOT in MTT and basically break-even over-all because I tightened up a bit around the bubble and then tried to hard to stay in the game and avoided risks, flips, etc.
The trick with MTTs though is to get MORE aggressive before the bubble and afterwards as well. Generally speaking take more risks, even flips if the situation calls for it - if you've committed more than a 1/3 of your stack - almost NEVER fold.
Basically the idea is - you will crash out of more MTTs before the money, but the ones you stay in, you will cash higher. So basically less cashes, but bigger cashes.
To do well in MTT you NEED to get Final table places (in the big games) and you need Top 3's in the smaller fields.
Playing to survive/cash will not work in the long run.
------------ Oh a few other things - never limp/raise when you're <10bb - either shove, fold or check.
Don't blind out! If you get under 10bb - look for ANY opportunity to shove - just pay attention to the action before you- KQ is a great shoving hand for 10bb, but not if UTG has raised and somebody else has already gone over the top. Be aggressive and look for any opportunity to get your (WHOLE) stack in, but don't be stupid.
Example A) you have 5000 chips and blinds are 200/400 + ante of 50, you're in LP with 78s and it folds to you - OPEN SHOVE.
Example B) You have 6000 chips blinds are 200/400 + ante of 50. You are UTG with A4os - SNAP FOLD. Never limp here and never raise. If you were a little shorter you could shove, but this is not a good spot to shove A4os from with this stack - alternatively - if you're on the button for example and it folds to you, then it's a snap-shove.
Example C) You have 5000 chips, blinds are 200/400 and you are in MP with 55 - UTG+1 raises to 1000 and UTG + 2 re-raises it to 3400. You - SNAP FOLD. You can't call and shoving is terrible because you're almost never good - absolute best case scenario is flipping and you're often dominated by a better pair.
Speaking of small pocket pairs, when you're short stacked these are brilliant hands to shove all in on - but NEVER call an allin with a small pocket pair. They are only profitable to go allin-pre with if you include fold equity.
The biggest mistake in MTT is people trying to "see flops" with speculative hands when they have 2-20bb.. Or trying to see flops with any hands for that matter.. 20bb can be a bit awkward - to big a stack to shove properly and to small to 3bet with. But anything under 15bb - don't even think about calling or 3betting - this is simply put - retarded.
So many people acknowledge this in theory - but then when they actually play - they keep calling/raising when they're short stacked.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1646
thats great advice jess. i myself have been struggling with my end game. i have played alot of mtt's lately. been getting a nice stack mid stages but when it gets closer to the money i seem to go card dead and end up being a short stack by the time the bubble approaches.
i need to get reading some strategy again because this was never a problem for me before, i was either out way before bubble or i'd final table. strange how your game changes so much after a break.
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 10090
mtt's are a difficult beast to tame there are no full proof methods to become a regular at the final tables, especially at freerolls, and in general in most online mtt's- if you want to go in mtt's seriously imho you should look for deep ones- big starting stack and slow tournament structure- this eliminates the need to act quickly, and you can wait for less risky situations to gain chips less risky way...
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Croatia
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1738
+ to Jess. I also have trouble on late stages mtt and even thou i try to apply these rules i always seem to choose the wrong moment to do it. Then there's also a bit of tilt when u spend 1/4 of ur stack in blinds waiting for a hand that never comes and then end up shoving with the 2nd best just to see u got beat by a bigger one. Yesterday i really made an effort to focus on a final table position not the money so when the bubble approached i loosened up and was doing good for some time. in the end i didn't finish ITM but was in 3rd when busting out, if the guy hadn't made trips i would be 1st with a big advantage but oh well...
Resuming... play more or less like Jess says being of great importance the read that ur making of ur table. adding a bit of luck to that and u should be ok most times.
+1 from me too. What Jess writes is congruent with what I've been reading in books like "Kill everyone".
I admit to having difficulty applying it. I've been bubble boy too many times, and also finished 11th too many times, for me not to have an irrational fear for these positions...
I'm definitely giving up equity to prevent this happening... Like I said: "irrational"...
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
These 100k depositer freerolls have huge fields. When you say you do really well I believe you are probably talking about the first couple of hours, or the first five or six blind levels. If you have no problem with that, it must mean you are playing a bit tight so you can pass all of those who try to win chips quickly, and you hang on to your strategy of only playing when having good hands. On these tourneys, you must remember it comes to a part where you have to attack more in other to win more chips. I believe that is your problem. You stick too much to only playing when having good hands and then, you tend to become short in stack, and in the end there’s nothing else to do to turn things around. You have to become a bit more loose aggressive when most of the donks are gone.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 57 (M)
Posts: 667
I totally agree with Jess. to him. I have finished in the FT on the 100K freerolls about 3 times. My highest finish being 3rd for about $170.00 not bad eh! Anyway aggression is the name of the game but don't be too aggressive too early.
Mtt's are the hardest thing to crack, much harder than ring games in my opinion. The thing to do is find your own strategy and stick to it for a while. You will adjust it as you go, and eventually you will find a winning formula. To my thinking it does not matter how you play as long as you are happy and winning.
GL to you all and hope to see you on the Final tables soon. (With me I hope) !!!!
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
If you follow whats written in this thread mreid it will help you for sure to get a boost in your play and finishing positions. Try to participate in tournaments that dont have too many players at first.
And always before buying in a tournament take a good look at all the details eg. prizes, blinds structure, late registration, rebuys etc, to see if it fits your game.gl
Joined: Oct '10
Location: Canada
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 204
yup thanks to all u i might do better id like to more about the buddle and what it means ive been studying some sites and id like to know some good ones to help me decide what to do and help win these big tournaments all i know is it takes patients time and didication,.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by mreid123: yup thanks to all u i might do better id like to more about the buddle and what it means ive been studying some sites and id like to know some good ones to help me decide what to do and help win these big tournaments all i know is it takes patients time and didication,.
Basically - PKR MTTs have relatively short fields - this means there is less variance. As a result of less variance you can apply a more aggressive bankroll management strategy because you'll be cashing more regularly. Also - there is a much smaller player base - so if you start taking notes, within a couple months you will have a pretty good data-set for most of the MTT regs there.
Joined: Oct '10
Location: Canada
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 204
the problem with pkkr i dont like its format its too laggy pokerstars is jus tstraight up poker MTTs 1.10 buy ins 60K garentee with are played once a day are great i like these specificaly the 30k ones are nb either but u need a solid bankroll at least $100 for it i cant even get 100 on my acccount will i done it twice but i cant get pass the 175 mark or 130 im not sure but still all these tournaments ive played ive done well in several but hundreds ive finished early and midddle i cant make it to the money for a strange reason i think its cause i limp with crap alot im dealt bad hands as well i dont seem to get the luck other stars has ak ak kk qq jj we the come rarely i lose most my chips do to blinds and cant hit a good hand perhaps these are my problems and i should be more less agressive i dont know what the case may be but my poker strategy needs an improvement.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by mreid123: the problem with pkkr i dont like its format its too laggy pokerstars is jus tstraight up poker MTTs 1.10 buy ins 60K garentee with are played once a day are great i like these specificaly the 30k ones are nb either but u need a solid bankroll at least $100 for it i cant even get 100 on my acccount will i done it twice but i cant get pass the 175 mark or 130 im not sure but still all these tournaments ive played ive done well in several but hundreds ive finished early and midddle i cant make it to the money for a strange reason i think its cause i limp with crap alot im dealt bad hands as well i dont seem to get the luck other stars has ak ak kk qq jj we the come rarely i lose most my chips do to blinds and cant hit a good hand perhaps these are my problems and i should be more less agressive i dont know what the case may be but my poker strategy needs an improvement.
Dont limp with crap and dont defend your blinds too the max. Also aply what Jess said.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
Good share, Jess . But need more ,lol Step by step. early phase, middle phase. i want to know your strategy at that phase. I hope get something new than theory (maybe ). Like shove < 10 bb. As I knew ( and usually I played < 17 bb ). What do you do with 10 bb - 17/20 bb ?
Joined: Oct '10
Location: Canada
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 204
id say hed just slow play wait for a hand then aa kk qq jj ak aq like he said u have to be agreessive to get chips ofr to finish in a good spot and 3 bets work. i like that style ive been watchin the pros they are helping. thanks f
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by Serpang: What do you do with 10 bb - 17/20 bb ?
That is a really awkward amount to have, because sometimes open-shoving is too strong, but you don't want to raise-fold (to 3bet/shove) with lots of hands like small-mid PPs, QKs, etc . Whatever you do - don't start limping because you're scared - if you feel like limping, then fold instead and save yourself chips, cause you're probably gonna fold to the raise/shove that's coming anyway - or get your chips in behind.
It's really situational.
If you're in Early Position:
Be more inclined to fold small PPs, Weaker aces, etc when 10-20bb.
Middle Position and Late Position:
These positions are a bit easier to play
With weaker holdins (22-1010) (JQs, KQs, etc) open-shove if it folds to you..If there's action before you, generally fold - unless you really think you still have fold equity, in which case shove. With better holdings - 3bet shove if anyone has raised (never flat a raise with a stack like this) - and if no one has raised, probably just put in a normal raise.. Or if the blinds are aggressive- try a limp shove.
I would say - when in doubt with a 15-20bb stack, probably just fold - you can survive quite a few more orbits before stack size is really critical.
Premiums are tricky - really depends on table dynamics - if you think you can open-shove AA from UTG for 15-20bb and get called then do it. But if the table is tight, maybe try something sneak like limp-3bet-shoving (and just hope the whole table doesn't limp with you!). Otherwise just put in a raise that matches whatever the tables been doing. I would open-shove almost any flop though. With KK- open shove pretty well any flop without an A, don't muck around with pot-bets, checks, etc - you'll just wind up in trouble.
Table dynamics are really important actually - if I am playing a micro stakes (say $3-$10) MTT I'll often open shove QQ/KK/AA for 30bb+ if I think I'm getting called often enough.. If you can think you can get all your chips in ahead as a reasonable favourite - then go for it.
------------ And remember - never stick to anyone rules (or advise like this) - poker is all about reading the situation - if you can perceive some edge by deviating, then do it - try it a couple times at least anyway.. Things like flatting with AA, limping KK from the button, etc - there are times when for whatever reason, they way your opponent has been behaving - simply dictates that this might be the most profitable play. So always be open to exploiting table behaviour that you've picked up on.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
Thanks Jess, you are very kind write so long for us I get several new, I wish can practise it and get better result ,lol .Good luck for you and I hope your skill more improve and share new variance again
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by Serpang: .Good luck for you and I hope your skill more improve and share new variance again
Thanks - I been doing alright lately, not playing any where near as often as I used to, and sticking to $10-$30 buyins.. But been doing OK - nearly got my graph up to $10K - hope to hit it in the next month or so.
This is my SS graph for PKR (jessthehuman) Scheduled only
Joined: Oct '10
Location: Canada
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 204
you are an outstanding playing i will take some of the advice you give me but just to let u know after all i made a 36 spot run in a brm freeroll tonight wasnt bad 10 cents or something but it was fun thanks and a bit of knowledge ive goten from this post
there are no full proof methods to become a regular at the final tables, especially at freerolls, and in general in most online mtt's- if you want to go in mtt's seriously imho you should look for deep ones- big starting stack and slow tournament structure- this eliminates the need to act quickly, and you can wait for less risky situations to gain chips less risky way...
