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  23-May-12, 16:24   #1
Open shove? 0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
Analyze please...

PokerStars Hand #80888276223: Tournament #562524769, $0.10+$0.00 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (400/800) - 2012/05/23 10:50:44 ET
Table '562524769 256' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: paulus108 (15195 in chips)
Seat 2: sascha6b (3610 in chips)
Seat 3: turek75 (2115 in chips)
Seat 4: egon1935 (1490 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: vik@763 (10763 in chips)
Seat 6: sadamman (5033 in chips)
Seat 7: erna55555 (1714 in chips)
Seat 8: smoggler (10775 in chips)
Seat 9: CaptainAK47 (28438 in chips)
paulus108: posts the ante 75
sascha6b: posts the ante 75
turek75: posts the ante 75
egon1935: posts the ante 75
vik@763: posts the ante 75
sadamman: posts the ante 75
erna55555: posts the ante 75
smoggler: posts the ante 75
CaptainAK47: posts the ante 75
erna55555: posts small blind 400
smoggler: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sadamman [Tc Ah]
CaptainAK47: folds
paulus108: folds
sascha6b: folds
turek75: folds
egon1935: folds
vik@763: folds
sadamman: raises 800 to 1600
erna55555: folds
smoggler: raises 9100 to 10700 and is all-in
sadamman: calls 3358 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (5742) returned to smoggler

     
  23-May-12, 16:41   #2
  +1 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 6230
Don't like your minraise here. With all the antes in the pot he will not fold, and you are inviting him to that push. I would have shoved, if i were in your position. You are no longer deep enough to play proper post flop poker.

     
  23-May-12, 18:14   #3
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
6BB is simply push or fold. Usually A10 is not that good a hand to be making moves with cos you are more likely to get called by hands that beat you but you can't really afford to wait for better so I agree it's a shove.

     
  23-May-12, 18:34   #4
  0 
SuperpokefA 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 178
I totaly agree : when you only have 6BB's you should openshove AT.
You don't get much opportunities to get a better card.
After the blinds you only have +/- 4 BB left.
Then you should openshove any valuable card.

Was this an MTT or STT ?

     
  23-May-12, 18:39   #5
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
It was an MTT

     
  23-May-12, 19:13   #6
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
A shove, no question.

In fcat I ran into a similar problem today.

I didn't shove with AQs (there were 6-7 ppl to act) I merely raised 4xBB (leaving 6BB behind)

I then got shoved on by a stack 1.5x mine.

I had to call, they flip A7diamonds.

They flop the nut flush - game over.

Now, if i'd AI shoved before him, I don't think he was calling or at least I would have been the one applying pressure and forcing them to make a bad call.

I got knocked out 10 places off the money and felt like an idiot - never again.

     
  23-May-12, 19:14   #7
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
Very standard shove, in this position being so low in chips i shove with less.

     
  23-May-12, 19:20   #8
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
Thought so. I don't know I don't know why I bother with fancy plays, its always my undoing. But this was just ridonkulous. Shock

*** FLOP *** [2h 2c 6c]
*** TURN *** [2h 2c 6c] Queen of clubs
*** RIVER *** [2h 2c 6c Qc] 4 of spades
*** SHOW DOWN ***
smoggler: shows [Kc 4h] (two pair, Fours and Deuces)
sadamman: shows [Tc Ah] (a pair of Deuces)
smoggler collected 10991 from pot
sadamman finished the tournament in 632nd place and received $0.15.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10991 | Rake 0
Board [2h 2c 6c Qc 4s]
Seat 1: paulus108 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: sascha6b folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: turek75 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: egon1935 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: vik@763 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: sadamman (button) showed [Tc Ah] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 7: erna55555 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: smoggler (big blind) showed [Kc 4h] and won (10991) with two pair, Fours and Deuces
Seat 9: CaptainAK47 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

------------
Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap!

     
  23-May-12, 19:50   #9
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by sadamman:
Thought so. I don't know I don't know why I bother with fancy plays, its always my undoing. But this was just ridonkulous. Shock

*** FLOP *** [2h 2c 6c]
*** TURN *** [2h 2c 6c] Queen of clubs
*** RIVER *** [2h 2c 6c Qc] 4 of spades
*** SHOW DOWN ***
smoggler: shows [Kc 4h] (two pair, Fours and Deuces)
sadamman: shows [Tc Ah] (a pair of Deuces)
smoggler collected 10991 from pot
sadamman finished the tournament in 632nd place and received $0.15.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10991 | Rake 0
Board [2h 2c 6c Qc 4s]
Seat 1: paulus108 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: sascha6b folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: turek75 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: egon1935 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: vik@763 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: sadamman (button) showed [Tc Ah] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 7: erna55555 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: smoggler (big blind) showed [Kc 4h] and won (10991) with two pair, Fours and Deuces
Seat 9: CaptainAK47 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

------------
Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap!


Unlucky man, you got donked.

It's possible they were trying to fancy play back, and got lucky.

But some peoples ranges are ridiculous - it's like once I have committed a single chip into a pot I'm going AI.

     
  23-May-12, 20:03   #10
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
Fucking donks. Angry Seriously though that was like 1/2 of his stack. Never in any parallel universe is that a good play with k4 off. I was fucking livid.

     
  23-May-12, 20:29   #11
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
I agree that A,10 isn't the best hand, but based on position and how familiar you were with your opponents method of play would be a determining factor for me so I won't really comment as to shove or not.

     
  24-May-12, 03:21   #12
  0 
Aces_Bluffer 

Joined: Apr '12
Location: Argentina
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 78
Posted by sadamman:
Fucking donks. Angry Seriously though that was like 1/2 of his stack. Never in any parallel universe is that a good play with k4 off. I was fucking livid.


I would have shoved, as most said... If you get called you can make some chips, if not also some more chips to wait for another good hand.

This is sth that you can usually see at most low buyin tournaments, and in a lot of rooms. The good thing is that most of the times you'll be winning. The bad is that sometimes they kick you out from the tournament.

     
  24-May-12, 04:34   #13
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by sadamman:
Fucking donks. Angry Seriously though that was like 1/2 of his stack. Never in any parallel universe is that a good play with k4 off. I was fucking livid.

Maybe.

On the other hand, from his perspective, he knows he is HU with you.

He wants to defend his big blind, and sees a min raise from a small stack on the button (you). He correctly asserts that this is a push or fold situation, and since you didn't, he figures that your hand is weak.
He may be thinking you will probably fold, because with any decent hand, you would/should have shoved. If you do call he has to beat your hand with king high.
His choices are shove or fold. But folding your BB against a min raise from the small stacked button? I think I would shove a fair percentage of the time there also...

I doubt he would have called with K4o facing a shove (I know I wouldn't have).

     
  24-May-12, 05:10   #14
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
lol 6bb open-min-raise.. sorry - but gross. Anything but an open-shove here is gross.

------------
The only exception to a shove here is possibly with KK/AA trying to induce a shove - or otherwise shove any flop if they call a min-raise. But with literally ANY hand other than AA/KK you need to either push or fold - obviously with 6bb folded to you in this position you shove. It's really really really really really really important that you include fold equity.. Fold equity is huge and if you miss that in your game ... well - I don't think your results will be very good in the long term, every time you make a move like this (forfeiting your fold equity) you're forfeiting $$$

     
  24-May-12, 08:31   #15
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
Yeah yeah I know guys. It was really bad. I'll try not to do it again, but I'm an impulsive idiot sometimes. I don't know why I always f**k up a game I've played well in with one move like this. But I think he was calling regardless, otherwise I don't think he'd shove. It was just the end of the line for me in this ill fated hand.

     
  24-May-12, 08:44   #16
  0 
lukasb 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Croatia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1735
That is always terrible when it happens huh... makes u think why da hell bother playing solid when ur going out with a donk play anyway Angry

U can only take comfort in knowing that that guy probably didn't win it either.. he can be lucky sometimes but never enough to make him a winning player.

About that min raise i have to agree with the rest of the guys. Better luck next time Thumbs Up

     
  24-May-12, 09:23   #17
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
Yeah I agree too, I just done it not thinking being cocky, thinking I'm better than everyone. Just the general idiocy which takes you out of MTTs.

     
  24-May-12, 09:45   #18
  0 
romariomach1 
Joined: May '12
Location: Romania
Age: 22 (M)
Posts: 9
Push all in, you are short stacked

     
  24-May-12, 12:31   #19
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
Smoggler has double the chips you have, bigger stacks than smoggler had already folded, and taking in consideration the level you are playing and the amount of chips you both had, you are both short and far from the top places of this tourney, which means you all need chips fast. Playing a hand in this situation means it will almost always be better to do it “all or nothing”. I think that is why your opponent went all-in, if instead he had calle you to see the flop, he would only be taking the risk of losing the chips he bet. This way, the risk is a bit bigger for him (half the stack), but you are the one who have to take a decision, not him. AT is not that good hand so, probably, you did wrong in betting at first. Now, if you did and you had a feeling you did well, the best now is giving the call and wait.

     
  24-May-12, 12:54   #20
  0 
Chartoule 
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1261
Hi guys!!

If you want to steal with 6BB you must go allin. In fact, you must go allin or fold with 6BB. We don´t need to play creative being shortstack. push-or-fold, my frien, push-or-fold.

     
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