Joined: Jan '09
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Considering you are in position with the Bigstack guy (UTG) you can think about calling as well if you don't want to get in risky situation: then you have to consider what comes on the flop and UTG move. Personally dont' like this option
I would surely 4bet here: UTG flatcall is a weak move, I assume he wants to get involved in the pot with Button guy so I would isolate. I consider my hand strong enough for a 4bet and when I have a hand I want to put my money in the pot soon as possible.
Anyway every move is oppo-dependent: an average good player wouldn't flatcall with AA-KK (expecially in UTG position) but would reraise. Is UTG a good player? I don't know for sure but he already stacked someone and it's an info. Assuming he is... well a 4bet is the right move here. Which betsize? If you don't want to risk all your stack preflop and would consider in some way to fold just bet something between $9 and $12: $12 would be correct (3x original raise +1x for the caller) but this way you bet more than half of your stack and imho you can't fold anymore. $10 is the max you can bet and still can think about folding in some way.
If you go broke happily preflop with QQ, like me, just shove and sit back eating popcorn
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The cold call by the small blind is a bit disturbing, but it is only NL20. We would be in a sandwich if we just called, so 4betting is a good idea. If we put the shorty all-in we have half our stack in the pot. Difficult to fold then.
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Hi guys!!
4bet allin. The other 2 players have small stack so we don´t fold QQ. By the way, i think we go down or in a flip here, but no matters. More interesting hand IF some of the other have a complete stack.
Joined: Nov '09
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Posted by Chartoule: Hi guys!!
4bet allin. The other 2 players have small stack so we don't fold QQ. By the way, i think we go down or in a flip here, but no matters. More interesting hand IF some of the other have a complete stack.
Actually small blind had stacked someone and was sitting close to $40.
All right. Like I said when I started this thread, guy on tilt who had become a short stack by now was ripe for the picking. When he raised to 15xbb and got flat called by the small blind, my thinking was that the small blind had AA/KK and was hoping to drag me into the hand instead of pushing me off with a reraise (seeing as how the tiliting guy didn't have much $ left) - so I called.
Flop comes down as seen below, predictably the short stack tilt guy shoves his last 5$ in and again the small blind flat calls. What do you do now and why?
Joined: May '08
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We now have second pair, against two opponents. End even if the shorty is tilting away his money, we have to give the small blind credit for a hand that beats us.
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i dont think the flop changes anything. those two would be doing the same on any flop. i think you've got yourself into a right sorry situation by not re-popping preflop.
the small blind could be doing this with any medium pp, or AJs+ knowing the ss is tilting and will have anytwo.
thinking about it more i do think he has AKos he wouldnt want to risk his newly accumulated chips with such a hand preflop against you so just called and now the flop has come he is not worried about you coming over the top.
i think your preflop call was the mistake as you are almost always facing this dilema on the flop if you dont hit a set or an over card hits.
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The aggressive one had become with half the stack you had, but he keeps the same strategy and maybe the cards he has in his hand helped him doing that move. I would put him in AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, even JT, but probably something robbing one out from you. About the third one, I can’t see his stack, but giving such a flat call, count on him to have a good pocket pair, probably figures. I am a scared poker player, so my move here, in your position would be of calling and hoping not to see an Ace at the flop. If it appears, then I would be in insta check/fold situation. What seems to be the best move would be to re-raise, the minimum of $5 to put the aggressive one in all-in situation, or even a bit more, never more than $7 (the size of the pot at that point). This way, you would see if the aggressive was in position of really playing that hand, and you would become with only one opponent either if the aggressive one calls or folds, because there would be only two with money left to bet after flop. So re-raise, don’t play scared money!
Joined: Oct '11
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as have been said, those two would probably have done the same thing no matter what had come on the flop. my move would have been to go all-in preflop but since that didn't happen, I probably would go all-in here. I honestly hope you didn't put your whole bankroll into a cashgame since if you get on a tilt, you'll lose it all. Anyway, if you do have some bankroll left, all-in here would be it for me. Just a call would probably make your opponents think that they had you beaten and they would force a fold out of you on either the turn or the river, most likely the turn.
im about 85% sure you are beat on this flop. kings are all over both of these guys ranges. you built this tough spot for yourself with the cold call preflop. I would seriously consider folding
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I see most people are saying shove preflop cos you are most likely ahead of the big stack. I agree that you probably were in front but for that reason I don't see the benefit of shoving. The hands that you want a call from won't call an all-in and you can't raise without going all-in. It is risky allowing them to see a flop but it does give you a better idea where you stand and assuming no one has AA or KK there are loads of flops that will pay off really well.
The flop isn't ideal but there is only one over card. Correct me if I'm wrong but the big stack is first to act and checks. Why didn't you then bet half the pot? Yes the initial raiser is definitely going all-in but we've already established he could have anything and was committed to it anyway. By checking you leave him to go all-in first and if the big stack has the same opinion as you he might call with a pocket pair (tens or jacks). But equally he could have hit the king and so now you have no choice but to fold. I wouldn't want to call and have to face calling an all-in on the turn with no improvement in my hand. But if you had bet out first you would put the onus on him to raise the flop and this would give you more information. If he raises he must have you beat, if he calls he has something but he isn't confident, if he folds you're heads up and you haven't lost any more than if he wasn't in the hand.
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In this situation i would have done one of two things. Either reraise all in preflop, or fold. You are saying the small stack is on tilt, but the other player had you covered moneywise. And i agree that the tilted one would have shoved no matter what the flop was. But you have SB which he might have called with KK, AK, KQ, KJ, KT and of course dont forget the K9 offsuited which many love.
Posted by WinAllDay: im about 85% sure you are beat on this flop. kings are all over both of these guys ranges. you built this tough spot for yourself with the cold call preflop. I would seriously consider folding
Exactly what I'm thinking. Shoving your queens pre flop is a good move if you're not against KK or AA, and I don't think it's a bad play in any way to take that risk especially considering the stakes you were playing.
After smooth calling the 3-bet pre flop, if a king or an ace comes on the flop, then you kinda have to fold. It's the only good thing about the call pre flop, it gives you the chance to fold if you really think you're beat after the flop.
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If having an over whilst holding QQ in a cash game and thinking of folding then id move to SnGs. Pre as said, id expect to be ahead and jamming then puts you on the 60% win bracket(in this situation) on that flop you are still at 50% and already have the chance of winning just under 100% of investment, obviously more if sb calls an AI, im still jamming, though I would have done it pre. This said with tilter on random, and sb on broadway and any PP. The decision is made easier now, though some would say harder because of an over. Due to the pot size, 19 in pot and 17 behind you with 50% chance of winning.. I guess with his range there is no real fold equity, but as the saying goes, if you are going to call its better to bet.
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if the guy is very aggressive, naturally you look for opportunities to go all in- so when you get qq i think it's a good opportunity- basically when i play against very aggressive players i just limit myself to two actions- fold or go all in, i think if you start play smartly you can easily outsmart yourself with this type of players
Joined: Nov '09
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A lot of good opinions being posted... If I had played this perfectly I wouldn't have posted this hand to begin with, so I was looking for some advice. Putting the sb on AA/KK with eye towards roping me into the hand made his continued check/call to the tilt monkey make sense to me at the time I played this hand. After reading the comments I will definitely play it differently next time.
I folded after the shove by the tilt monkey and call by the sb. Final outcome....
Joined: May '08
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This QQ example 5min ago, close too the bubble....
Table #45221662 - Tournament #25940911 Table #31 Starting Hand #2094875159 Start time of hand: 30 May 2012 21:06:16 Last Hand #2094874266 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 800 / 1,600 Button is at seat 4 Seat 1: fanos44 - 12,300 Seat 2: MikeHewitt - 11,630 Seat 3: ilikecards - 52,356 Seat 4: domdy - 25,169 Seat 5: FIXITY - 34,590 Seat 6: slickwillys - 26,860 Seat 7: 13111545 - 28,795 Seat 8: Thelier - 18,874 Seat 9: drewy28 - 91,739 Seat 10: Raoulex - 13,106 Shuffling Deck Moving Button to seat 5 fanos44 posts ante of 175 MikeHewitt posts ante of 175 ilikecards posts ante of 175 domdy posts ante of 175 FIXITY posts ante of 175 slickwillys posts ante of 175 13111545 posts ante of 175 Thelier posts ante of 175 drewy28 posts ante of 175 Raoulex posts ante of 175 Pot sizes: 1,750 slickwillys posts small blind (800) 13111545 posts big blind (1,600) Dealing Cards Dealing [Q h][Q d] to domdy Thelier did not respond in time and is folded Thelier folds drewy28 folds Raoulex calls 1,600 fanos44 folds MikeHewitt folds ilikecards folds domdy raises to 8,950 FIXITY folds slickwillys folds 13111545 raises to 28,620 (all-in) Raoulex folds domdy calls 24,994 (all-in) Returning 3,626 to 13111545 uncalled Pot sizes: 54,138 domdy shows [Q h][Q d] 13111545 shows [A d][Q c] Dealing Flop [T d][8 d][9 s] Pot sizes: 54,138 Dealing Turn [2 s] Pot sizes: 54,138 Dealing River [T s] Pot sizes: 54,138 13111545 has One Pair: Tens domdy has Two Pairs: Queens, Tens domdy wins 54,138 with: Two Pairs: Queens, Tens Seat 1: fanos44 - 12,125 Seat 2: MikeHewitt - 11,455 Seat 3: ilikecards - 52,181 Seat 4: domdy - 54,138 Seat 5: FIXITY - 34,415 Seat 6: slickwillys - 25,885 Seat 7: 13111545 - 3,626 Seat 8: Thelier - 18,699 Seat 9: drewy28 - 91,564 Seat 10: Raoulex - 11,331 End of Hand #2094875159
------------ No offend to anybody but how you want to make profit at poker if you flatcall QQ preflop constantly and want to see a flop and fold to a king or ace flop? I mean poker is about betting so put presure on opponents. Does everybody forgot QQ is 3rd best starting hand?
Joined: Oct '11
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Posted by doomdyoes everybody forgot QQ is 3rd best starting hand?
I have to correct you there. Granted, AA and KK are great starting hands but AK suited is actually classed as the best starting hand according to many and almost everyone agrees that AKs is better then QQ.
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if u do flattcall with Q-Q ,,being scared or intuition says ,opponent holds A-A or K-K
then be ready to pay some $ for info after the flop...,,i agree on doomdy saying Q-Q is a pressure hand,,so bet and don't be scared...if that hand scares you,,, which other hand do you play aggresive then??? without being scared??? lol
if it was for my last money i'd still want to get all money in the pot...knowing any starting hand can win and lose...
Joined: May '08
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Imo if your scared to loose a buyin with QQ and want to see first a flop your losing money long run for sure. Scared money is where you loose the most money. If you play your hands EV+ it doesnt matter what the outcome is, if you get raped by Arag you for sure win money long run by keep playing like this, but many people only play short run
which many love.
Shoving your queens pre flop is a good move if you're not against KK or AA, and I don't think it's a bad play in any way to take that risk especially considering the stakes you were playing.
oes everybody forgot QQ is 3rd best starting hand? 
