Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Hi all,
Here's the format: Six players, Blinds start at 15/30 up every 3 min and starting stack size is 300. So far I've found them fun but haven't got anywins yet. They're ridiculously aggressive so I figure they shouldn't be too hard to be profitable at, so many toss away their buyin early.
Is the game too fast for any real strategy to eke out an edge or is there potential here?
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 1277
Dunno if ur referring to super turbos or nitros as some sites call them.
I have played some where u get 500 starting chips and won some but it's a crap shoot really - over time i think its probably profitable because u get a lot of idiots shoving with junk, but you need good hands to be sure or at least see the flop, and often its too expensive.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
They have similar ultra-fast games at PKR - starting stacks are big, but on PKR the blinds go up literally every hand !!!
Aggression is right - my advice with them is to play really tight early on - but open-shove any premium hands you get. Then once you're down to 2-3bb, starting shipping nearly everything, especially if it's folded to you in a late position.
Also - bare in mind, you *CAN* have an edge in these sorts of games and they can be great for getting a good hourly from a low-buyin game, not to mention decent rakeback opportunities. However - the variance is huge - you are largely gambling and any 'edge' you can cut yourself is going to be tiny. So would recommend a bankroll management strategy that allows for a lot more buyins than usual SNGs.
When I was playing these a while back on PKR I found there were two main ways to gain an edge:
A) Early stages, people calling/shoving junk / any ace / etc. Use this to your advantage by tightening your own range.
B) Late stages - people playing like a nit, especially trying to stay past the bubble even if it means ending up with no chance of winning.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jessthehuman Aggression is right - my advice with them is to play really tight early on - but open-shove any premium hands you get. Then once you're down to 2-3bb, starting shipping nearly everything, especially if it's folded to you in a late position.
Yup. The first big mistake people who don't know how to properly play these, is to try and open limp or call min-raises to "see a flop". This is probably one of the BIGGEST mistakes you can make. The very nature of "Super turbos" where you start with 10bb stacks is that you must be tight but AGGRESSIVE.
Unless a specific situation dictates otherwise, you're playing every single hand fit or fold. No limping or calling. If it's good enough to limp or call, you should be shoving.
It's funny how often I'd see 2 people limp, and then fold when someone jamned. Totally heomorhaging money by doing that.
Posted by jessthehuman
Also - bare in mind, you *CAN* have an edge in these sorts of games and they can be great for getting a good hourly from a low-buyin game, not to mention decent rakeback opportunities. However - the variance is huge - you are largely gambling and any 'edge' you can cut yourself is going to be tiny. So would recommend a bankroll management strategy that allows for a lot more buyins than usual SNGs.
Yup, I played a few THOUSAND of these back on FTP, and the swings are SO brutal. I'd definitely say 100 BI at least, possibly even 200 if you're new to them. I routinely saw swings of 20-30 buyins on these. Solid players in the micro/low stakes can only expect to see 6-7% ROI in these, and it goes down exponentially as you climb up the stakes and player skill improves.
A lot of super turbo specialists play almost break-even, and rely on rakeback for profit, so if you don't get rakeback or a good equivalent, they probably aren't even worth playing TBH.
Posted by jessthehuman A) Early stages, people calling/shoving junk / any ace / etc. Use this to your advantage by tightening your own range.
B) Late stages - people playing like a nit, especially trying to stay past the bubble even if it means ending up with no chance of winning.
Yeah, the biggest edge you can achieve, is from polarizing your ranges. If you've ever heard of the gap concept, you'll know that it takes a stronger hand to call with, than to shove with, so you can really exploit players that call down light as well as shoving wider against players with percieved tighter ranges. Knowing who you are up against, and adjusting your ranges accordingly is SO important in super turbos.
Also a good knowledge of ICM is key as well, as you can identify marginal spots where you can squeeze out extra equity in spots that may otherwise be a tough choice.
So yes, Super Turbos are VERY profitable, and tonnes of fun, but insanely frustrating at the same time. You've got to be mentally prepared to make a good shove, only to get called down by complete trash and lose on a VERY regular basis.
The greatest thing about supers is, that they become very formulaic, so it's quite easy to multi-table more of them than you would normal STT's. Also because they are so short, you can put in a LOT more volume as well.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
You can deffo make money on them, its basicly like Jess and Retribution says tight but uber agressiv, allways play2win. There are pros on Stars they multi like hell on middle/high stakes with very tiny roi but big rakeback earnings.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
They are difficult. The books tell us that when we sit in a table full of aggressive players, we should play on the opposite side, and if we are at a table with only tight players we should be the aggressive ones. At hyper turbo is difficult to fix to this rule. When having a pocket pair with figures, i always go all-in pre-flop. If i'm not the first to act, things tend to get better than the opposite. About the rest, just try not to lose chips when your hand is not that good, but it's not easy to see flops only with the BB, normally no one lets you do that, and you shouldn't also others do it.
this is a very difficult format because of starting stack and blinds.you should be very lucky to win in this kind of game...if no good hands...go all in with any 2 cards with 5BB left...
Joined: Mar '12
Location: Netherlands
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 617
i play them also on pokerstars sometimes when multitabling ,,only to compensate,,,but i never tried to play them all day long,,,just dont have enough confidence that i will win on long term playing these..
main goal is to get 1 or 2 double ups,,then wait for monsters and players busting out..hoping to still have chips for HU..and win then..don't believe in dominating the table being chipleader,,cause u get called by any medium hand,
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
That's game just luck game for me, just can played for fun. If win with score 2 difference ( 2 - 0, 3 - 1 ) , best way is stop, why ? cos your winning will lost to rake. Try to count it. Seldom we can win more than 3 difference. Same case with double up ( not turbo ).
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Thanks for all your thoughts, especially Jess and Retribution, very detailed. Seems like I have the basic idea down pretty good but you've given me some new ideas to help place better. I've won a couple, 2nd a few, and bubbled plenty, but I'm guessing that how it's supposed to go.
