I just played a pretty weird hand in a 3,50$ HU on pokerstars. I had A2 hearts on the button, blinds 10/20. It was the 4th hand of the HU, the guy seemed pretty agressive and already had a 200 chips lead on me.
So I raise 2x pre flop, he calls. Flop is 9d 2d 4h. He checks, I bet 60 in the 80 pot. He quickly makes a big raise to 270. At this point I'm thinking that he's raising me only because he thinks I didn't hit anything on that flop, but he could have 2 pair, a set, a flush draw and maybe even a straight draw. Of course I wouldn't normally do that, but I decide to call. Turn brings a 3 of diamonds. He bets out 320. At this point I know I don't beat anything but a bluff and I would normally fold there, but I also think it's a good board for him to try to bluff. River brings another 9, wich I think is a good card for me... and of course he shoves.
I take all my time and finally decide to call thinking this would be a stupid shove if he has less than a flush there (unless hes bluffing of course). Guy shows J8 of hearts (air) and has now 200 chips left
Do you guys think being able to do this kind of crazy defying logic call is important or is it too loose?
But don't worry Jovi I won't do that too often! You told me to play to win and not to outplay my opponents, and I think it's a great thing to keep in mind when playing HU online
Edited by TheMachineQC (Thursday, June 14, 2012 @ 14:09 GMT)
Joined: Aug '11
Age: 31 (M)
Pretty weird hand and hard to do what you did so early in the match since you don't have any info on the player.. but yes he did raised you alot aswell without a read on you so it's possible a bluff but i wouldnt call his raise for sure.. it puts you in a bad spot like it did when he bet the turn like that and with that flop when you call a raise like that and you have such a thin odd for your hand to evolve the only thing you will beat in the long run most of the time is a stone bluff. I would probably fold and wait for better spots or if i did which i wouldn't i would reraise him never call. Anyways i guess you won the match after that which is always nice but i don't advise you to that much often lol it's not a good way to win money :S
If a guy plays poker like your opponent did you can beat him with skill for sure nn to gamble it all in a hand.
Best play here would be to fold on the flop avoiding this situation. Maybe raise on the flop but that's reckless considering that guy would've shoved any 9 or flush draw there. Calling and shoving on the turn would be pretty bad too, but anyways this hand was all about the read I had on him when he raise on the flop. Of course I would've prefered a heart, an ace or a deuce on the turn to make my decisions easier
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
I actually feel sorry for the other guy a little cos you were such a donk in this hand. I don't think he played it well. There is no need to bluff so much early on and he broke the golden rule: never bluff a donk. But to be fair you should never have called that all-in.
All you could beat was a complete bluff, not even J3, which would still be from his pov a bluff. So you don't give him credit for a hand but you have next to air yourself. And I think a straight is a definite possible hand (a bad shove on the river but there are bad players at this level) and a missed straight draw with 3 5 is also possible (a bluff on the river that isn't a bluff).
Your first mistake was the min raise from the button. This may well have been the motivation for the aggressive player to try and punish you. You need to raise to at least 70 to stop any bb calling and even then caution is needed on the flop.
You list all the possible hands on the flop and choose to put him on none of them. There is no need to go broke in this hand. You have no clue what hand to put him on. Stop trying to make plays and just fold. All draws then hit but you still keep calling. Why? hero calls have a time and place but you're not getting any value by donk calling every aggressive raiser with a small pair.
You obviously have based your idea of how I play on 1 hand, wich would make you a donk too, so be carefull what you say. Your 3.5x raise style is not standard, most HU players only raise 2-3x because they want to play post flop against donks and raise almost every button without comitting too many chips against calling stations.
There is many little things that made me think he was bluffing there, I only followed my read and let him bet like I would've with a monster...
Edited by TheMachineQC (Thursday, June 14, 2012 @ 17:13 GMT)
Well ... maybe you aren't but you played the hand like a donk. I would never named this call a "genius call". In fact, it's really close to be a donk call. I would never have played the hand that you played even if the opponent is extremely aggressive.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
I admit I based my original analysis on 6+ handed table. I didn't notice it was HU til after. But I think my point stands that you were the calling station here... you called every street with bottom pair and even a missed straight draw was beating you, not to mention any one of the countless hands he could have had to shove that river.
I'm not a HU player so I can't say I know it could be played better but I don't buy the read crap. I have heard many boast about their reading skills but I know you couldn't be so certain after so few hands. And I think there are some basic rules that apply to all poker: you don't need to risk playing dangerous pots when the blinds are small, you need something to call a bluff with, if you don't have information you are better off folding.
And for the record I associate your name with a decent poker knowledge even if I was misremembering, and I based my judgement on what you admitted in your op (you try to out play your opponents) and I wouldn't judge you by one hand. I think you know yourself that this was playing dangerously and needlessly and you should learn more will power to fold.
It's all good awood, of course I would never play that way if it wasn't HU. I wasn't certain I was ahead, but I thought It wasn't that unlikely considering the previous hands. And I totally agree with you guys, don't try this at home, that "read" thing is a myth I didn't post this to act like I'm good for doing this call, cause it's actually a pretty terrible call (especially on the turn). I knew it was way out of the book when I did it and that it's a terrible play 9 times out of 10 and poker is all about long term and volume so again don't do this at home. I would never call on the flop against a player that I know has any kind of skills or recommend doing this to anyone.
Problem is in this case I already highly suspected he was a big donk after 4 hands with his ugly pot size bets, and I simply thought I was ahead. Everytime I called his bets I thought he was going to shut down on the next street but he never did... We have to keep in mind that he's not even semi bluffing, he's out of position with only 1 card over top pair so he obviously has no idea what he's doing. I don't have 1 billion hand played, but I have enough experience to see a an aggro donk when I see one. It usually takes more than 4 hands to be confortable with anything lower than top pair, but he was very transparent I would like to play him live
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Gutsy, but apparently the right call. You didn't have time to figure your opponent out so it was definitely risky, but stupid on your opponents behalf as well. Without adequate time, enough hands and to many chips being played that early the only thing I can say is, I wouldn't make it a habit. lol
Joined: Feb '11
Age: 23 (M)
Easy fold to his flop raise. Usually people at these stakes arent really capable of making 3-barrel-bluffs with air. Obviously there are exceptions,but in the long run your play is very very -EV here. Just fold and wait for a better spot (many better spots were to come)
Joined: Jan '10
Age: 53 (M)
Maybe your opponent practising 'long ball' bluff.lol . Anyway, you had good reading about your opponent ? ( just play 4 hand or you ever met him before ) and instinct. I know sometimes we couldn't analysis precisely our opponent hand, but our instinct / feeling tell it, do you ?
Joined: Mar '11
Age: 37 (M)
Well I think the point we're all missing is this: In poker, if you know you've got your opponent beat, act accordingly. Themachine seemed to think he had his opponent beat, so the call is technically correct. As much as i advocate the mathematical/skill side of poker, there's more to it than that.
Poker is all about outplaying your opponent, through exploiting their weaknesses, playing on your reads, and ultimately by always thinking one level above them.
Mind you, it's hard to really know someone after only 4 hands, so I still vote that it was pretty donkish play TBH Now if you made that call after you played a few hundred hands with them, I'd totally believe it was a good soul read
Good point retribution, if you don't make a habit of it there's nothing wrong with doing this kind of play once a year
100% true Fackinas, but there's also players at this limit that play just for fun and like to try to bully everytime they can (I would say 10-20%). Calling like that isn't even in my book, it just happened Like I said at the moment I was mostly counting on position, hoping that he would shut down so we could check check it later. I thought the guy would give me credit for a 9 after calling his raise on the flop. And smooth calling isn't that bad here considering he did not have any diamond. Any good player would shut down on the turn unless he has something very solid or a good draw to rely on. But that's what's fun about this hand, we both weren't doing what we should've been doing! That's why I wanted to share the hand even If I understand how bad in general this play would be and how it makes poker look like bingo