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  11-Jul-12, 14:04   #1
Early stages of a speed MTT +1 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277

I had been card dead and was 400 off my starting stack of 3000k. Had just shoved with 3 to act holding KJo, due to the blinds and my relative stack..not a situation I like.

so here's what happened - I picked up QQ on the CO and raise 3x the BB to 750. BB has 6k stack.

He raises back all-in - it can mean only one thing, AA, KK or AK - I figure the likelihood is AK. I could fold, leaving me 1800k with blinds at 250. Definitely an option but at this point I think the chances of me picking up another hot hand before I get blinded down to a SSS and have to shove with any two is low and it's the best spot to try and double up to 5k+.

So yes, I shove back, he has AKo - the race is on, clean flop, clean turn, 3 hits on the river to give them a straight lol.

Later in a tournament I figure this is definitely a folding spot - I don't want to flip, but I think due to my stack I needed to shove and take a bit of a gamble, albeit slightly ahead at 57%.

     
  11-Jul-12, 16:22   #2
  0 
Chartoule 
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1261
Hi!!

I call without doubt with QQ in a speed MTT (and in a standard MTT) vs a BB reraise allin. He can be defending his blind easy with 88+ AJ+. Soemtimes we will find AA or KK but well...

     
  11-Jul-12, 16:55   #3
  +1 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Sorry but it's really terrible of you to think this is a folding spot,this is a happydance call and it's not even close.
You also expect his range as way,way too tight.
With your stack you shouldnt even be raising anymore,with 10BB or less it's pure shove/fold unless in very exceptional situations,and even then you should 2x instead of 3x.
After 3x'ing with your tiny stack you cant even think of folding anymore,however,like I said,this is a fistpump-call.
The range you've given him here is,like I said,way,way,way too tight as well.
If I was him,I would consider your 3x as a shove since technically you're commited,and would jam over your 3x what I'd call a shove with.
Thats probably a range of like:
44+/A5s+/A8o+ and so on..
vs. a reasonable shoving range at least,many people shove too tight but that would be about my range to call a 9BB shove from CO with

     
  11-Jul-12, 17:16   #4
  0 
occultum 
Joined: Aug '11
Location: Portugal
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 232
Sure if it's speed i would instacall/all in easy.
You will win > then you lose in the long run with that.. the range of players at speed mtt's is really wide like bemyatmplz said .. even if he happens to have AA or KK you did the right thing.

If you don't call/bet with that you will be eating by the blinds..

You can always play a good position game like waiting for good oportunities to isolate players and flip one but that's deffo a position to be agressive.

     
  11-Jul-12, 17:22   #5
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
100% call, you absolutely cant fold this spot.
These spots are no-brainers, you have to know these spots are super standard, its horrible to fold this one.
Anyway goodluck, good question Thumbs Up

     
  11-Jul-12, 19:47   #6
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4847
BeMyATM has its spot on. Less than 10BB and youre all in at this point. MAybe your 3x may have sucked the raise from the BB but he would have shoved anyway with the hand he had.

     
  11-Jul-12, 22:09   #7
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Sorry but it's really terrible of you to think this is a folding spot,this is a happydance call and it's not even close.
You also expect his range as way,way too tight.
With your stack you shouldnt even be raising anymore,with 10BB or less it's pure shove/fold unless in very exceptional situations,and even then you should 2x instead of 3x.
After 3x'ing with your tiny stack you cant even think of folding anymore,however,like I said,this is a fistpump-call.
The range you've given him here is,like I said,way,way,way too tight as well.
If I was him,I would consider your 3x as a shove since technically you're commited,and would jam over your 3x what I'd call a shove with.
Thats probably a range of like:
44+/A5s+/A8o+ and so on..
vs. a reasonable shoving range at least,many people shove too tight but that would be about my range to call a 9BB shove from CO with


I called obviously but being 57% favourite isn't fantastic and everyone knows AK against QQ is a real flip.

If you'd have shoved back into that raise with A5s+ then i think thats a terrible spot - 33% chance to win. That's a verrry loose reraise.

AJ and below is a fold in that situation - although AQ is also in terrible shape.

So technically AK, AA, KK is the only three hands to be wary of holding QQ preflop AI.

If i get called by 44+ up to JJ I am laughing as well.

So my assertion that folding is an option when I think my opponent has AK is also true to an extent. No one wants to flip for their tourney life, however I had to in that situation and was more than glad to pick the suzie Q's up.

And as for me being commited - I had 1800 chips left behind with blinds of 250/125. Thats a foldable position also, sometimes I don't like the ICM strategy of shoving with certain hands everytime and having less than 10BB = Mr.McShove.

In this situation I had a read due to the raise AI. So I gave myself options to figure what they had.
And depending on the flop I shove.

I think you're right generally but you can't play robot poker 100%, soemtimes you need to use your gut.

------------
Posted by damosk:
BeMyATM has its spot on. Less than 10BB and youre all in at this point. MAybe your 3x may have sucked the raise from the BB but he would have shoved anyway with the hand he had.


Yeah for sure if I had gone AI from the get go he would still have called.

     
  12-Jul-12, 00:02   #8
  +1 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
You cant think of the specific hand that you ran into AK.
You have to think about how your hand is doing vs. the whole range the opponent can have.
AK and KK+ is a way,way too tight expectation.
I'm playing turbos only with massive volume,I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ranges.
I guarantee you no winning player has a calling range tighter than 77+ in terms of PPs if you shove 9BB from the CO in this situation.
Your 3BB raise has to be treatened like a shove because you commited 1/3 of your stack in,folding shouldnt even be in consideration for you no matter what hand you open there (of a reasonable range,which is wide,should be around the ~40% mark).
The 10BB rule isnt a ICM rule,ICM doesnt exist in MTTs until the FT or rare spots @ F2Ts.
The rule is simply made because by opening a hand you are commited anyways,and so that some spewtards that think they still have fold equity dont play back at you.
You can use a thinking like this tho in some spots by minraising and inducing,but it doesnt work vs. reasonable players usually.
The play has nothing to do with robot poker,your mistake is that you think way too much about the individual hand.. and even if it was,turbo games are probably the most simple games in online poker (which is the reason why I'm grinding them),a decent programmed bot with decent ranges could beat the lowstakes games easily.
You have to think in terms of longterm EV.
Longterm your equity will be greater than 57%,vs. a reasonable range,and even if not,57% is great equity considering the required equity in terms of pot odds.
The A5s was just an assumption what I'd call a 9BB shove from CO with,obviously your ranges are too tight and thus I'd have to tighten up my calling range as well,however in my games calling A5s vs. a reasonable shoving range would be slightly +EV.
Using your gut isn't profitable,doing +EV situations based on your equity vs. the opponents' range is.


     
  12-Jul-12, 01:56   #9
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
early stages all in with 99+ hahaha...only on free-roll tourney.... I think open shove rather than raising 3x is the thing that i will do at least i don't have to think of folding my qq when the BB shoves...its going to be the same but i line to shove rather thank calling a shove....i usually lose calling an all in even with good hands....but i win a lot with medium strength hands when i shove and im short stack...

     
  12-Jul-12, 04:14   #10
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1476
I think you're right generally but you can't play robot poker 100%, soemtimes you need to use your gut.


Read more: http://www.bankrollmob.com/forum.asp?mode=thread&id...

That's correct for me, but since your stake around 10-12 BB, all in or fold is choices. No space for tactical bet. All analysis above is very good for me. I play your style at normal MTT and early stage
when my stake > 17 BB

     
  12-Jul-12, 13:02   #11
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
You cant think of the specific hand that you ran into AK.
You have to think about how your hand is doing vs. the whole range the opponent can have.
AK and KK+ is a way,way too tight expectation.
I'm playing turbos only with massive volume,I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ranges.
I guarantee you no winning player has a calling range tighter than 77+ in terms of PPs if you shove 9BB from the CO in this situation.
Your 3BB raise has to be treatened like a shove because you commited 1/3 of your stack in,folding shouldnt even be in consideration for you no matter what hand you open there (of a reasonable range,which is wide,should be around the ~40% mark).
The 10BB rule isnt a ICM rule,ICM doesnt exist in MTTs until the FT or rare spots @ F2Ts.
The rule is simply made because by opening a hand you are commited anyways,and so that some spewtards that think they still have fold equity dont play back at you.
You can use a thinking like this tho in some spots by minraising and inducing,but it doesnt work vs. reasonable players usually.
The play has nothing to do with robot poker,your mistake is that you think way too much about the individual hand.. and even if it was,turbo games are probably the most simple games in online poker (which is the reason why I'm grinding them),a decent programmed bot with decent ranges could beat the lowstakes games easily.
You have to think in terms of longterm EV.
Longterm your equity will be greater than 57%,vs. a reasonable range,and even if not,57% is great equity considering the required equity in terms of pot odds.
The A5s was just an assumption what I'd call a 9BB shove from CO with,obviously your ranges are too tight and thus I'd have to tighten up my calling range as well,however in my games calling A5s vs. a reasonable shoving range would be slightly +EV.
Using your gut isn't profitable,doing +EV situations based on your equity vs. the opponents' range is.



I understand what you're saying, but if you have a read on someones hand range it's not correct to say you can't have them on a hand or even a couple hands. Which I did.

Obviously QQ vs AK in the long run is +EV - but when it's a minorly +EV spot for me with tournament life on the line, but the big stack will still have 5k chips left if they lose then I am the one who can fold.

Short term - EV for long term + EV aka a better spot say against a short stack.

     
  12-Jul-12, 15:18   #12
  +1 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Cant believe anyone in this world would have a range that tight...if there really is,they should change the game ASAP.

In MTTs it doesnt matter how minorly of a spot is +EV,as long as it's +EV then ideally you should take it,since especially in the stage you are in in this situation there are no ICM considerations at all,So even if that spot is only like +0.01 in Chip Equity you should still take it (its far more +EV tho).

     
  12-Jul-12, 15:36   #13
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
I am so crying if some1 say this hand (QQ) is considerable folding Sad
If you folding here you absolute dont have a clue what to do in a MTT Sad
Sorry to sound so harsh but the ones who folding turns the hand upside down, ''I folded the hand and you see, its a perfect fold cos i wud lost to AK'' thats so bad consideration Sad

If you want to step up please listen to BeMyATMplz cos he is giving very good advice.

Why invent ''the weel'' why its allready invented Confused

     
  12-Jul-12, 17:27   #14
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by doomdy:
I am so crying if some1 say this hand (QQ) is considerable folding Sad
If you folding here you absolute dont have a clue what to do in a MTT Sad
Sorry to sound so harsh but the ones who folding turns the hand upside down, ''I folded the hand and you see, its a perfect fold cos i wud lost to AK'' thats so bad consideration Sad

If you want to step up please listen to BeMyATMplz cos he is giving very good advice.

Why invent ''the weel'' why its allready invented Confused



I'm arguing a little out of interest because it's an interesting spot to be in.

To think that it's not a consideration to fold is to not think.

And yeah it's easy to look back and be like, well yeah the AK won. AK often wins against such a hand.

It's not about shove ranges like BeMy says.

The moral of this one is always shove in this spot, then they are the ones making the mistake by calling.

     
  12-Jul-12, 19:13   #15
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8623
speed tourneys are just destined for all in situations most of the time, you just need to figure out your "all-in range" before the tourney, so that you won't lose your head when the situation gets hot, and later just follow your range without too much thought imho. whatever helps you win also works Big Smile

     
  12-Jul-12, 22:13   #16
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Posted by noonlion:
It's not about shove ranges like BeMy says.


It is about shoving ranges because with your stack you should never ever even consider 3x/fold,so your 3x'ing range should equal to your shoving range in this spot.

     
  13-Jul-12, 01:37   #17
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by noonlion:
It's not about shove ranges like BeMy says.


It is about shoving ranges because with your stack you should never ever even consider 3x/fold,so your 3x'ing range should equal to your shoving range in this spot.


Thumbs Up to this.

Any format where the average stack is <10BB is shove fold all the way. Back in the FT days, I played quite a few thousand of the super turbos, which was basically the same format, except single table.

The key to dominating these, is to play a solid range of hand shove/fold. Figuring out the other players percieved ranges is important as well, as you can adjust you shove/calling ranges based on wether you think they are tight or loose.

Opening up for anything less that a shove in these is just weak. The only exception to this, is if you have a monster and WANT to induce a shove in a spot where a shove may scare people off. This is pretty rare though, as usually min-raising just looks too strong, and even donks can figure out what you're trying to do. No sense giving them a chance at a cheap/free flop, as this is making a big mistake, as opposed to forcing them to be the ones to make the mistake by calling.

     
  13-Jul-12, 08:26   #18
  0 
SuperpokefA 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 178
This is a definitely a call. His range is much wider than you put him on as he can think you are trying to steal the blinds. So AA,KK and AK is way to tight.
Your stack is less than 13BB so with QQ you should makt the call

     
  13-Jul-12, 12:40   #19
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
I would also shove that QQ in that situation. You would be compromising all your turning if deciding to fold after making that pre-flop bet, so, if you already decided to play the QQ, you have to play it til the end.

     
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