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  17-Jul-12, 01:52   #1
SNG All in Pre +1 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
Which hand would you prefer to shove in an SNG about 10bb remaining in your stack?in any position...
AK or 77?

     
  17-Jul-12, 02:46   #2
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Probably AK, 77 is technically a stronger hand, however - the beauty of shoving/calling allins with AK is quite often you get to dominate AQ/AJ/AX hands - with 77 often you're flipping at best, occasionally dominated by a larger PP and even less frequently dominating a small pocket pair.

With AK - you're sometimes flipping, rarely dominated by AA, KK you're not in too bad shape and you get to quite often dominate AX and KX hands.

------------
FWIW never CALL an allin with low-mid PP unless you're uber short stacked / already pot committed. small-mid PPs are excellent shoving hands (when you're short) but they're terrible hands to call shoves with - you require the fold equity for them to be profitable - otherwise you end up dominated too often.


     
  17-Jul-12, 03:31   #3
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
Your right jess but i have seen players in micro SNG calling all ins with small PP...and they win more against big ace or even a big pair....its kind a weird....
anyway i was involved with this hand....


Start hand: Tue Jul 17 09:13:31 CST 2012
Table: Table #1 [256326813] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM 75/150, Chips)
User: hdelaraya
Button: seat 4
Players in round: 6 (10)
Seat 3: zn5 (845)
Seat 4: MilenaX7 (1845)
Seat 5: hugo_1980 (5400)
Seat 6: hdelaraya (4755)
Seat 7: besamel (1695)
Seat 9: morbido81 (5460)
hugo_1980 posts small blind (75)
hdelaraya posts big blind (150)
---
Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to hdelaraya: [Kc, As]
besamel folds
morbido81 raises 300 to 300
zn5 folds
MilenaX7 folds
hugo_1980 calls 225
hdelaraya raises 4605 to 4755 [all in]
morbido81 raises 5160 to 5460 [all in]
hugo_1980 folds
--- Dealing flop [5s, Ks, Ad]
--- Dealing turn 3 of hearts
--- Dealing river 7 of diamonds
---
Summary:
Main pot: 9810 won by morbido81 (9810)
Rake taken: $0
Seat 3: zn5 (845)
Seat 4: MilenaX7 (1845)
Seat 5: hugo_1980 (5100), net: -300
Seat 6: hdelaraya (0), net: -4755, [Kc, As] (TWO_PAIR ACE, KING)
Seat 7: besamel (1695)
Seat 9: morbido81 (10515), net: +5055, [7s, 7h] (THREE_OF_A_KIND SEVEN)
***** End of hand T5-256326813-22 *****

I think i overplayed my AK here but i was thinking that if he has small PP...he should be folding.... Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  17-Jul-12, 03:49   #4
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by ayaraled:
Which hand would you prefer to shove in an SNG about 10bb remaining in your stack?in any position...
AK or 77?


I love questions like this, I've got a lot to say Smile

There are a few factors, such as what size stack you're up against, position and ICM.

If you're 5 handed, which is usually about when most micro sngs reach the 10BB average stack size, you're going to want to be a bit more aggressive, as you want to be accumulating chips to keep your alive, and maintain some fold equity. With 5 players left, ICM doesn't factor as much as it does when you're 4 handed and on "the bubble".

So I'd say a good Early position would be 44+, K10s+, kjo+, A6o+ and A2s+.
From HJ/Btn I'd say loosen up a lot and shove any 2 suited connectors, any face, and any pp. Personally I still don't shove anything 44 or lower, because you're easily dominated by pretty much anything they'll be calling with, but if the people in the blinds are super tight, you can get away with 22+.

These ranges really will alter however, based on the table dynamics. I tend to loosen my ranges against a tighter table, and tighten them vs a looser table, as you're fold equity won't matter much if the table is overly loose and thus you have to rely more on showdown value of your range vs theirs.

In terms of calling ranges, it's better to loosen your range vs a loose player, and tighten vs a tighter player. It really helps to try and visualize what you think their perceived ranges are, which is why you really have to pay attention if you aren't using a HUD.

When you're 4 handed, you've really got to really focus on whether your play will be +ev in terms of ICM. For example, if you're on the button, and it folds to you, you normally would be shoving pretty wide, but say the SB has you covered, and the BB only has 2 blinds left, a good shoving range actually drys up to QQ+ believe it or not. This is why I always preach to STT players especially to study ICM, as it really will vastly improve your profit and allow you to correctly identify good spots.


     
  17-Jul-12, 05:58   #5
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
You kinda overplayed your hand but still its EV+ to play it like this imho.
Still in a SNG i wud not do this, i can understand in a MTT with a total heavy payout structure, i have no problem put my tourney at stake at this one (MTT), but for SNG its no for me.

------------
Good thread btw Thumbs Up

     
  17-Jul-12, 07:15   #6
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1476
We never know what hand we get next, so before how our hand we got before get AK or 77 or even worse ? If crap card, yeah, what so ever I will shove. 10 BB or less really bad situation. I ever try, waiting better hand, often not coming until my chips lost all.

I often play shove when my stake around 12 BB, like steal blind but my hand good enough, K10os,
64s, A8, A9.....Not bad result.

     
  17-Jul-12, 09:25   #7
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
Probably 77 since it's already a hand and people would call with basically anything if they see you only have 10 bb left...

In this particulary spot i saw people go all in with every A or K that they have in hand.

     
  17-Jul-12, 09:47   #8
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
can anyone teach me how to do ICM...I have SNG wizard but i dont know how to use it...lol....I see ICM but still have to figure out how to use...I want to use it but very slow in inputting data....any suggestions will be very much appreciated....

     
  17-Jul-12, 13:13   #9
  0 
occultum 
Joined: Aug '11
Location: Portugal
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 232
Honestly it's really hard to talk about different hands in "any position" .. it depends alot tbh about position and the opponents.. but your talking about being short and shoving.. i guess i would be shoving with any of those if that's the matter.. but i would probably prefer AK in early position would be sick to collide into a bigger pair.. but most of the times tbh i prefer pocket pairs.

     
  17-Jul-12, 16:09   #10
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10011
Unless blinds are getting me and its a forced all in somehow
i would prefer to go all in with AK than 77.
At least in my personal history, along with hands of other players
i have observed, the majority of the times such a pair gets dominated

     
  17-Jul-12, 19:43   #11
  0 
MarcWinz 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 644
Well you won't believe this but I have just gone all-in with AK os and was called by two people 77 and AJ os guess which hand won?

You got it AJ so that tells us all something, I think each time you have to do something like that you have to judge who your opponents are. I obviously didnt do that or if I did I got it wrong.

Remember every situation is different and GL to you.

Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  17-Jul-12, 21:05   #12
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
It depends on the position,you can in no scenario give a correct answer that includes ranges without mentioning the position,especially for questions like this.
For example as for UTG shoving ranges AK is the better "choice" because chances are you get called by AQ or even AJ so you dominate the opponents range sometimes,while 77 you dominate nothing,the major part of his calling range is you dominating you by alot.
From SB AK is still doing better because the calling range of your opponent includes looooaaaads of Ax and Kx combos that you dominate,a good player in BB will call your shove with A2/K6s etc. type of hands (if he thinks you are wide enough).
From 88+ it's getting closer tho. 99 is the breaking point from what the PP is becoming stronger than AK vs. a reasonable BVB callingrange.

     
  17-Jul-12, 21:11   #13
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
It depends on the position,you can in no scenario give a correct answer that includes ranges without mentioning the position,especially for questions like this.
For example as for UTG shoving ranges AK is the better "choice" because chances are you get called by AQ or even AJ so you dominate the opponents range sometimes,while 77 you dominate nothing,the major part of his calling range is you dominating you by alot.
From SB AK is still doing better because the calling range of your opponent includes looooaaaads of Ax and Kx combos that you dominate,a good player in BB will call your shove with A2/K6s etc. type of hands (if he thinks you are wide enough).
From 88+ it's getting closer tho. 99 is the breaking point from what the PP is becoming stronger than AK vs. a reasonable BVB callingrange.


Sorry, but realistically this isn't the case. The gap concept relies on their calling ranges needing to be tighter than your calling ranges. Sure they are likely to call your UTG shove IF they have a certain range, but the frequency in which they will actually have a hand they can call with is small in relation to how often you can be profitably be shoving your range. You also have to take into account that you can shove a wider range by position, as the fewer people left to act, the less likely they will have a hand/call they can correctly call you with.

This is also only 1 part of the equation, as you're relying on fold equity to get rid of the more marginal hands. This is why you need to be shoving wider than they are calling, so you can maintain/build a stack size that HAS fold equity.

     
  17-Jul-12, 21:29   #14
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Thanks,I'm well aware of these standard concepts.
However fold equity isnt in question here at all...we have 10BB -we have more than enough to have fold equity.
The question basicly is what hand is doing better vs. a certain calling range...having AK or having 77 makes no difference in terms of what kind of fold equity you have.
You having AK also doesnt change the calling range of your opponents because both hands are within your range,regardless of if you are UTG or SB,it simply widens up your range,however in both cases vs. a calling range of a good player AK is doing better than 77.

     
  17-Jul-12, 21:38   #15
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
Love reading questions like this myself although I don't answer since I gain a lot by reading the replies from the more experienced players. I don't think I would have won as many SnG's as I have without BRM / Forum / Mobsters.

A big thanks to you all!

     
  18-Jul-12, 05:11   #16
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
Thank for the comments mobsters....not playing well with micro SNG in betfair...Already lost around 20BI...just win around 20percent this week.....need to take a break and review my game....i was thinking can go all in with qq+ any position any stack....others cards AKo,AQ,AJ,JJ,1010....maybe small ball strategy.....

     
  18-Jul-12, 05:11   #17
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 6229
With just 10BB i shove happily with both those hands. In theory 77 is slightly stronger, but one will rarely have more than 60-70% equity if called by an opponent.

     
  18-Jul-12, 08:34   #18
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by shokaku:
With just 10BB i shove happily with both those hands. In theory 77 is slightly stronger, but one will rarely have more than 60-70% equity if called by an opponent.


Exactly. Your shoving range is ALWAYS going to be a flip/behind their calling range, and that's the entire point of Nash. You gain the advantage, because they have to tighten up to profitably call you, which means they are not only calling less often, but they are forced to make a mistake in calling.

This also works in your favor, because they never know if you're shoving a monster like JJ+, or if you're shoving the bottom end of your range. This is where fold equity gives you the additional edge. In marginal spots, such as when ICM dictates, their profitability drops substantially if they call you at the wrong time.

Sure shoving wider will get you called more often, which means you have to accept more flips and thus more variance, but that doesn't mean your shove was -eV, whereas their call may be.

     
  18-Jul-12, 10:30   #19
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
77, always 77 for me. With 77 you already have something in your hand, you have a payable hand. With AK, you only have high card and you need the help from the table to keep on the game if you are in low stack all-in situation. How many of us have already been kicked out from a tourney with AK against a low pair because the table didn’t gave us what we needed?

     
  18-Jul-12, 16:27   #20
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10011
Yea of course i have been kicked out from a table while all in
with AK and even from 22, but at the same time how many times
have you lost the 77 from a bigger pair for example? (AK excluded).

There are playes that no matter the position, stack, point of the game
will go all in every single time they will get a pair in theor hands.
Different gameplay Smile

     
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