Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
There's been previous discussions about the Old PT3 vs HEM1, discussing the pro's/cons of each package, and everyone seems to have their preference. Personally, I always preferred HEM over PT3, simply because of the stability and ease of use and way more stats/analysis etc. It also intergrated pretty well with SNG wiz, leakbuster and other programs.
Now PT4 beta has been release, and HEM2 has been out for a while. Just wondering what anyone who's had a chance to use both thinks? I think PT has definitely caught up in terms of speed and stability, and it's a heck of a lot more intuitive to use than HEM2 is. Seems a lot less cluttered, however it also isn't comprehensive as HEM2 is.
Posted by Macubaas: Between the poker tracker 4 and the holdem manager 2 i would definately choose the holdem manager 1!
Completely agree! HM2 still exhibits a lot of bugs. It's unstable yet although they are selling to you like if was definitive. I used to use PT3 in the past and it was fine but I can't talk about PT4 because I don't know anything about it.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 5712
Interesting use of technology! Can you use them at a live table? What does that say about their use..... but then when great hands bomb out against rubbish maybe they're worth it! Dont know anything about the spec of either of them tho!
Joined: Jan '11
Location: Bolivia, Plurinational State of
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 196
I used both HM2 and PT4, HM2 is colorfull and has a lot of graphics, but it's too heavy and has; PT4 it's easier to use and has all I need. The beta has been realeased some months ago and is free for now, I used it for 4 or 5 months and am going to buy it as soon as I can.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 3361
Wish I actually would know a little about how these work and what there about. I'm clueless when it comes to trackers or any type of electronic device that is used to assist one's playing technique / methods. Can I just type this into my search engine and find out about them? Maybe I could improve my game a bit. Do you think they help or not?
I was really thinking to try this out but are this software OK for Pokersites........Is there really an edge using this software if playing one or two tables only?....I understand that it is very useful in multitabling....also is it fair play when someone has tracking software and others don't have?becuase me i dont have this soft..
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by damosk: Can you use them at a live table? What does that say about their use...
Not much, other than that they're electronic and require a computer.
FYI: I have HEM2 - but never used PT, so can't really comment - Also, I play on PKR - so I've not used the HUD either, just used HEM2 to go over sessions really.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Okay, I really wasn't expecting this to turn into another debate when I posted this thread, so I'll make a quick statement and leave it at that.
While HEM/PT have HUDS, which some people say are "cheating", their entire purpose isn't just the HUD. They keep traffic of every hand you play, your profits, and all of your personal stats. You can easily pull up hands you've played, so you can analyze your play. You can check your stats to analyze potential leaks, such as being too loose UTG, or not stealing enough from LP+. There's a whole array of stats and tools that are used when you AREN'T at the table. The whole purpose of these tools is to find out where you need work, and what you're doing right.
I defy anyone to find something wrong with that. I'm not going to get pulled into a long debate about it, because there's simply no reason anyone could debate that self study and improvement is "unfair". If that's the case, then even frigging reading articles/watching pros play etc would be "unfair".
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 747
i know im probably fighting a lossing battle on here but i grew up with a deck of cards when i was 6 i used to build pyramids in my room. love the game of poker let 10 people put their money on the table and all play the same game by the same rules and may the best player win. i dont know why this kind of software is allowed pobably because of the extra rake it can help generate and i know that it is easy to say if you cant beat them then join them, but i couldnt bring myself to use this kind of software against good honest people who have worked hard to have a bit of spare money to play a fair game when they get some spare time. it makes me sick to see the like of victor blom who have made "millions" online playing poker but cant win anything in a live tournament or live cash game, hes just meat for the grinder. did he eally earn that money fair and square? now when i was looking at how people make so much money online it always comes down to cash game at the end of the day and i cant play cash game, not on stars its made for this stuff and while im trying to guess what sort of players im up against they all have it in black and white, i dont stand a chance really not in the long run because that little advantage that other players have against me at the table is enough to tip advantage in there favour and eventually the advantage will pay of. now if people could answer this, at what point did greed destroy your sportsmanship and love of a fairgame and at what point did it become right to win with the help of software against millions of people who put their money on these sites in the hope of having just one thing , a fair game of poker , because things like this are destroying poker online for the honest player.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by takingdrugs: i know im probably fighting a lossing battle on here but i grew up with a deck of cards when i was 6 i used to build pyramids in my room. love the game of poker let 10 people put their money on the table and all play the same game by the same rules and may the best player win. i dont know why this kind of software is allowed pobably because of the extra rake it can help generate and i know that it is easy to say if you cant beat them then join them, but i couldnt bring myself to use this kind of software against good honest people who have worked hard to have a bit of spare money to play a fair game when they get some spare time. it makes me sick to see the like of victor blom who have made "millions" online playing poker but cant win anything in a live tournament or live cash game, hes just meat for the grinder. did he eally earn that money fair and square? now when i was looking at how people make so much money online it always comes down to cash game at the end of the day and i cant play cash game, not on stars its made for this stuff and while im trying to guess what sort of players im up against they all have it in black and white, i dont stand a chance really not in the long run because that little advantage that other players have against me at the table is enough to tip advantage in there favour and eventually the advantage will pay of. now if people could answer this, at what point did greed destroy your sportsmanship and love of a fairgame and at what point did it become right to win with the help of software against millions of people who put their money on these sites in the hope of having just one thing , a fair game of poker , because things like this are destroying poker online for the honest player.
OMFG, seriously, did you even bother reading my entire post before you started typing? Using HEM/PT doesn't give you ANY information at all, at the tables, UNLESS you use the HUD. So you're litterally saying that NO-ONE should be allowed to read articles, watch videos, post in forums, or otherwise do something constructive to improve their game, instead of whining about how it's "not fair".
PT/HEM can be used without using the hud. Even if you do use a HUD, it's allowed by almost every single poker room. They don't care if you think it's unfair, it's their room and they allow it. So you either have the choice of: A) getting a program (if you can afford it) B) Keep crying it's unfair, which honestly does absolutely nothing, since poker rooms likely won't change their policies just because YOU don't like it. C) Instead of arguing something you can't possibly win, post your hands for analysis, read some articles, or watch some videos. Work to improve your game, and it won't matter if someones using a HUD, because you'll be able to outplay them anyways.
Besides, only a very SMALL portion of online players use HUDS, the rest either can't afford it, or can't be bothered.
BTW, you're point of "online players" not being able to win live is just rubbish, as how many WSOP champs in the last 10 years have been online grinders? Does the name Chris moneymaker ring a bell?
I don't play live often, but against your average player, I'll dominate them, because I'm smarter than they are and know more about the game than they do. That may sound arrogant, but frankly it's just the truth. It comes from STUDYING and talking to other players.
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 747
Posted by retribution: OMFG, seriously, did you even bother reading my entire post before you started typing?
no i didnt because i stated witing it before your post was put on there you probably posted it while i was writing (7.19 you post 7.21 my post) ok? if i really wanted to id wouldnt buy a hud id make my own.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
GRRRRRRRRR... AAAAAAHHHHHH...That's how I feel about this whole subject and retritbutions smug little bitch ass attitude about it.
You may not want my comments but I refuse to bite my tongue on this unjust and dishonest practice.
To the people who have admitted to using a HUD (I know who to expect an answer from, if you don't answer you're a fag. I'm callin y'all out dawg ):
How much do you make per week using a HUD or any other type of pussyhole software?
How much did you make per week before you used a HUD or any other type of pussyhole software?
If you were winning in the first place, why use a HUD? (Because you weren't? )
Do you have any sort of winning mentality and belief in your own ability? Why use a HUD then?
On another note I've got a experiment in mind, how about 5 of you HUD users each play a game together. Where 4 of you doesn't use a HUD but try's to emulate what your HUD would do. 1 of you uses the HUD, and then you each post the findings on the forum. Essentially, make notes about the game as detailed as you think possible. I bet you can't, you don't have time, wouldn't be able to calculate everything, and would make mistakes because YOU'RE HUMAN. So retribution that would render your argument obsolete. I urge you to do this is if you think what you say is true.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
I always heard well things aboout HEM, that’s what my friends (those who play higher levels than me and give a real use to this tool) prefer. They have na historic of a loto f players they use to play with and that data helps them on their strategy at the tables. Some play during a lot of hours/day (not like me) and their graphs about opponents are very well defined. I’m talking about people who plays NL50 and NL100, this has nothing to do with my (lack of) experience at the game. Note: I know what you can be thinking, i already tried, more than once, to convence them to register BRM, but one of them can’t write in english and the others still haven’t understood the benefits of belonging to a comunity like this…
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Greece
Age: 58 (M)
Posts: 66
A) Using a HUD is certainly cheating as it gives those that use one an unfair advantage over those that don't (that's the essence of cheating after all). The advantage being unfair because it is not the result of someone's efforts or abbilities but rather the result of using technical means that are available just because of the nature of the online play. It's like playing chess online and using an openings database or a chess engine on your computer while playing. B) The fact that the poker rooms are allowing HUDs, for the time being, doesn't change that one bit. C) I wouldn't be so sure that the poker rooms won't change their policy on this subject in the future, now that there is a tendency of supporting the recreational players over the sharks. D) Sure, you can own a tracking software without using the HUD, but what percentage of those owning a tracking software don't use their HUD? E) I expect that those people that believe that tracking software is not cheating and say that they would keep winning without it after all, would support a decision of the poker rooms to ban HUDs, while they would still be able to use their tracking software for home analysis to improve their game, right?
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by Phoenix2104: A) Using a HUD is certainly cheating as it gives those that use one an unfair advantage over those that don't (that's the essence of cheating after all). The advantage being unfair because it is not the result of someone's efforts or abbilities but rather the result of using technical means that are available just because of the nature of the online play. It's like playing chess online and using an openings database or a chess engine on your computer while playing.
But the fact is, ANYONE has the ability to buy tracking software, and thus use the hud. This point isn't one you can't possibly win, because realistically the only ones crying HUDS aren't fair, are the ones that don't own one. Is it MY fault you are either too poor to afford one, or are just to lazy to learn how to use one?
Posted by Phoenix2104: B) The fact that the poker rooms are allowing HUDs, for the time being, doesn't change that one bit.
Sure it does. Poker rooms have all the say, you don't. They allow is, so deal with it.
Posted by Phoenix2104: C) I wouldn't be so sure that the poker rooms won't change their policy on this subject in the future, now that there is a tendency of supporting the recreational players over the sharks.
Your'e kidding me right? Yes, poker rooms are going to side with recreational players, who generate a fraction of the rake grinders do. Who do you think a room will side with? Someone who generates 3 dollars a month in rake, or someone who generates 3000?
Posted by Phoenix2104: D) Sure, you can own a tracking software without using the HUD, but what percentage of those owning a tracking software don't use their HUD?
Likely none. Would be kind of silly to buy a product with the intent of not even using it. Would you buy a car and then take the bus to work?
Posted by Phoenix2104: E) I expect that those people that believe that tracking software is not cheating and say that they would keep winning without it after all, would support a decision of the poker rooms to ban HUDs, while they would still be able to use their tracking software for home analysis to improve their game, right?
I can prove I'm a winning player right now. I've already posted my stats in the forums of when I was playing NL Zoom on stars. +3BB/100 over 40,000 hands. I think that's a large enough sample size to prove I'm a winner, and I played EVERY single one of those hands WITHOUT a hud. Oh and btw, I ran under expectation, so I should be closer to 4-5BB/100. I don't NEED a hud to win. I can profitably play cash games, but I am much better at STT's where I maintain a ROI of around 10-13%.
Hud or not, I'm going to win, because I've put time and effort into studying and learning the game, something your average player doesn't do. A HUD won't change that, in fact I'd have NO problem being the only player at a table not using one. The stats a HUD provide are arbitrary, it's how YOU play that is what makes you money. A hud doesn't play the game for you.
Also, why would we want to support the decision for poker rooms to ban software we paid money for? That's the most ridiculous leap of logic I've ever seen.
Bottom line is, HUDS are allowed. Whether anyone likes it or not, they aren't going anywhere. They've been around almost as long as online poker, and poker rooms have no problem with them. I can guarantee as long as there's been HUDS, there's been players wanting them banned, so case in point, poker rooms don't give 2 shits about your opinion and the 3 dollars in rake you generate. They have real players to be concerned about.
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 10090
i don't use any of them, since i play split pot games most (omaha 8, stud hi-lo) and at first versions none of them offered option to use software for split pot games i just forgot all about them- later i heard they they do support split pot games from some version and up, but really i didn't bother looking deeper at them- and btw you should be playing higher than micro limits to even consider any one of them, since the cost of owning one can be higher that your whole bankroll
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 6669
I have to agree that on lower limits there is frankly no reason to use a HUD, but in stakes from NL10 or higher where there are regulars on any site you could use it in your advantage.
I also want to add that both HEM2 and PT4 use a lot more resources than HEM1, and if you are multi-tabling you need to have a pretty strong pc to run them.
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