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  26-Jul-12, 05:40   #1
Bad shove in a 9man sng 0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
I've noticed there seems to be a lot of SNG questions in the forum lately, so I'm going to post this as an example of WHY it's so important to pay attention to ICM and choose your spots carefully especially on the bubble.

PokerStars Hand #83198003: Tournament #79668, $3.16+$0.34 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2012/07/26 1:08:28 ET
Table '592379668 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: Romulo1214 (8620 in chips)
Seat 3: Sevendeuce79 (1505 in chips)
Seat 4: V.Belkin (670 in chips)
Seat 5: LoReNFlaMeS (2705 in chips)
Romulo1214: posts the ante 25
Sevendeuce79: posts the ante 25
V.Belkin: posts the ante 25
LoReNFlaMeS: posts the ante 25
V.Belkin: posts small blind 150
LoReNFlaMeS: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sevendeuce79 [5c Qd]
Romulo1214: folds
Sevendeuce79: raises 1180 to 1480 and is all-in
V.Belkin: folds
LoReNFlaMeS: calls 1180

Results are irrelevant, because I should have folded. Any time you're in a situation like this, you've really got to weigh out your risk vs gain ev wise. In this spot, I should have let the hand go, since I could have easily just waited for the short stack to be back in the blinds.

I made a big mistake by shoving, partly due to arrogance and frustration. I had just lost a flip against the short stack last rotation, and the BB had been playing super tight, so I figured I could shove in this spot. However, with a bigger stack in the blind, I should realistically have been shoving a lot tighter range.

The point I'm making is, these are the kind of spots where you SHOULD be laying down marginal spots, as they are losing plays.

Edited by retribution (Thursday, July 26, 2012 @ 05:43 GMT)


     
  26-Jul-12, 06:59   #2
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
your right retri....been in this situation also where BB is super tight and fold his blind with any raise....
then suddenly he calls when you push with marginal hands like q10 BB suddenly calls and show AA,KK,QQ....bad move next table please..... Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  26-Jul-12, 07:17   #3
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
good point retribution- always make sure you pay attention to the players and their chip stacks, on the bubble this is even more important, since any decision you are going to take will result in financial loss or gain. however you can't just sit and wait for the short stacks to act, since they do double up once in a while, and then you can become a short stack yourself Big Smile

     
  26-Jul-12, 07:19   #4
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by ayaraled:
your right retri....been in this situation also where BB is super tight and fold his blind with any raise....
then suddenly he calls when you push with marginal hands like q10 BB suddenly calls and show AA,KK,QQ....bad move next table please..... Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile


Well the flipside is, you can get far more equity from shoving wider against a tighter opponent, than they will when they call you. If you take, for example, an opponent who's only calling you with his top 3% (WAYYYYYYY too tight), that means the other 97% of the time he's folding. This means the chips you lose from when he does call is offset by what you get when he folds.

The 3% of the time he does call, you're at worst an 80-20 dog, which means you still get 20% equity in addition to all the chips you make each time he folds.

     
  26-Jul-12, 07:33   #5
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2115
Let me guess you sucked out his AK? Blink

Anyways I don't like the shove since there's a guy sitting with 2 BBs on SB who's gonna call with a very wide range that still beats your Q5... The BB is more likely to fold but you don't wanna double up the short stack in this spot. I wouldn't mind a shove with a suited connector or a K high+, but Q5o no thanks Tongue

     
  26-Jul-12, 08:56   #6
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Yeah I've been in similar spots, where I've thought, this is it I need to play this and bam out I go.

You're totally right usually to be more wary of the SS shoving than the BB in this spot but q5o isn't good enough.
The only exception I could think of is if the BB and SB are both ultra tight but even then you run a risk of them getting something solid.

     
  26-Jul-12, 09:17   #7
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
Yeah I know the type of spots you're getting at. There's so many better hands to do this on than q5 off though. I'd prefer 9 2 suited 23 suited, j8 off etc. There was alot more better hands to come. I'm not insulting you, spots like this are one of my own problems. Frustration is so horrible. I know it is horrible to get card dead at the vital point in the game when people are getting qq, aa, aq etc like every hand in a row. I don't know if this is what got you frustrated here, but it definitely does with me. Don't listen to people who say its ego, they're robots. Its not ego its personality, its uniqueness, its human. It may be your biggest weakness but its also your greatest strength.

     
  26-Jul-12, 10:42   #8
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
Dont think its a bad shove, imho perfect shove, why fold Confused

     
  26-Jul-12, 11:31   #9
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by doomdy:
Dont think its a bad shove, imho perfect shove, why fold Confused


Because the dead money I pick up isn't worth as much as if I fold. Sure I can shove, and SB and BB can fold. But if SB calls me, I'm crippled, and if BB calls me I'm out on the bubble. I'm better off giving up the blinds, rather than take the risk that I'll be knocked out. Even against SB alone, he has to be calling pretty wide given his stack size. Given this, my range needs to be tighter, since I don't have as much fold equity I have to be ahead of a signficant portion of range.

     
  26-Jul-12, 12:44   #10
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
But the blinds will previous affect you, which could put you in disadvantage to the lower stack. TG+1 isn’t the best place to make a move like you did, but i don’t consider you played as wrong as you said. Besides, as you said, your move was related to previous action at the table. Unfortunately, that could have put you in na easy-to-read situation.

     
  26-Jul-12, 12:51   #11
  0 
occultum 
Joined: Aug '11
Location: Portugal
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 232
Tilt much? :<

Results are not irrelevant.. i want to know what your opponent had atleast.. needs more information for decent analyzes tbh .. i know that a decision must not be made by what your opponent had .. since a good or bad decision is made before you know it so it doesn't matter.. but still wanna know.

Anyways.. it depends alot on your opponent tendencies and gamestyle.. so it might not have been that much bad of a move.. some ppl call with 45 76 :<

     
  26-Jul-12, 16:22   #12
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2115
Hmm Doomdy... Why shove when the only hands who will fold are the ones you beat? I mean I could see SB calling with J9, 910, 89 or something like that but still Q5 isnt ahead of much. If BB calls you're covered and beat for sure. I know being ahead isn't necessary when you make a move of course, but this is the bubble and he just payed his blinds. He can afford to wait 2 hands for something better than Q5 and/or short stack to get knocked out. IMO It's a bad spot considering the stack and blind sizes.

Any good player will call with any A or K so I don't see how this can be a "perfect" shove. I wouldn't say its a very bad play, but it's not a good one. Of course there's a chance Q5 is the best hand, but if it isn't you're getting called and if it is they probably will fold...

I've seen a lot of people call all ins with QJ, Q10 or even Q9s in this type of spot with very high blinds, so you could be dominated by a couple of marginal hands + the usual KQ, AQ, A5 and any PP over sixes. But most likely in this spot you'll end up 35%/65% against a hand like A3.

Edited by TheMachineQC (Thursday, July 26, 2012 @ 16:27 GMT)


     
  26-Jul-12, 16:32   #13
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
Shove this spot is for sure EV+, if BB is any decent player/grinder then for me its a 100% shove cos BB cant call this shove.

------------
For example:
80% its fold BB.
20% its call BB. (I think 20% is too high but anyway...)

So 80% you pick up huge blinds and antes.
And 20% you have a race lets say (35%-40%)/(65%-60%) behind.
So if BB calls and you loose no problem cos your playing to win, if BB calls and you win your in good shape to race for first rather then be itm.

Edited by doomdy (Thursday, July 26, 2012 @ 16:41 GMT)


     
  26-Jul-12, 18:31   #14
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2115
Yep, that's very true, but the very short stack SB is still dangerous even if he's basicly just a chip and a chair. If Retribution decided to fold, maybe SB would've shoved and BB would've called anyways. At this point in the game I would just wait for the 2 bigger stacks to eliminate the short stack untill im UTG or that I catch a playable hand. Then I would probably make a move with almost any 2 UTG or wait for BB and of course never fold the BB.

Position play is very important when you're short stacked but that is a pretty tricky spot.

Edited by TheMachineQC (Thursday, July 26, 2012 @ 18:46 GMT)


     
  26-Jul-12, 19:13   #15
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
I dont like the shove but it's not as bad as some think it is Blink would be a different thing if BB was the bigstack

     
  26-Jul-12, 19:28   #16
  0 
occultum 
Joined: Aug '11
Location: Portugal
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 232
True if you wait for the premium hand to shove you will ante to death most likely.
In any game you need to take some risks if your going for the win so i don't think its that bad.
For the same reason i asked the hand he was called with and info on player :\
Anyways.. bubble is imo even a good point for the shove.. most people cant handle the presure.. unless the dude woke up with a monster? but like doomdy said.. most of the times your getting paid and you HAVE to do that to go deep in any sng.

     
  26-Jul-12, 19:40   #17
  0 
B1gfoot 

Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 6714
If bb is super tight, then it's daft not to shove ATC, he could be playing donk ITM too, leaving you in great position.
SS has 670, if you lost to a flip against him then LOL for frustration.
What sort of range do you think you should be shoving against super tight?

A normal (if there is one) game, I would fold(expecting to have to play half stack regardless against SS ATC), but with the BS out and you against SS(2bb) and a super-tight, why not be going FTW.
Pot is well worth the risk.

The worst sin in poker is to be blinded.

     
  26-Jul-12, 21:55   #18
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
I took a thumping last night thinking I had the nuts when all I had was the 3 - Q's against 4 - A's. I rarely paly in the Freerolls especially one's that start at 9:00 pm. when I have to work at 6:00 am. Anyway it figures that I'm playing very well and predicted the outcome saying to my son, "I'll get down to the last 50 and blow it". Which I did! Sitting #1 with 182K in chips the 2nd place player raises to 26K and I call of course with my pair of Q's. I'm fat or I think because a Q, A, 9 come on the flop. I'm sure opponent has an A as he's Allin and of course I call. He has a pair of A's and hits a 4th on the river. All I could say was Nice Hand. Of course I'm done being down to 23K in chips. I just through it away witha 10,7 so I could go to bed finally, at 11:30 so I could drag rear at work today. lol

     
  27-Jul-12, 00:58   #19
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
Posted by retribution:
Posted by ayaraled:
your right retri....been in this situation also where BB is super tight and fold his blind with any raise....
then suddenly he calls when you push with marginal hands like q10 BB suddenly calls and show AA,KK,QQ....bad move next table please..... Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile


Well the flipside is, you can get far more equity from shoving wider against a tighter opponent, than they will when they call you. If you take, for example, an opponent who's only calling you with his top 3% (WAYYYYYYY too tight), that means the other 97% of the time he's folding. This means the chips you lose from when he does call is offset by what you get when he folds.

The 3% of the time he does call, you're at worst an 80-20 dog, which means you still get 20% equity in addition to all the chips you make each time he folds.


Your right retri, shoving in this position gives a higher fold equity...Only sometimes is does not work but there will be a new table to play...waiting to be blind out is lossing because dont have any chance to go for 1st place...Only sometimes if your gut tells you to shove then i would shove evrytime maybe 22+ 56s+,Ax,Kx,Q7+. I dont know is this range is good.but i played lots of SNG and at this position i was call by SB and BB at around 10% but of course i lose around 70% to 80% on showdown because they are almost ahead all the time...but still manage to win like k9s against AA...

     
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