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  21-Aug-12, 23:18   #1
Casino suing gamblers who won £1m thanks to unshuffled cards blunder 0 
madpoker 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 153
A casino in Atlantic City is suing a group of gamblers who won almost £1 million thanks to a blunder that saw a game played with unshuffled cards.

The group of 14 players were enjoying a game of mini-baccarat at the Golden Nugget when they began to notice that card after card was coming out in an identical sequence.

Realising that they were in for the chance of a lifetime the gamblers calmly began to raise the stakes from the $10 table minimum up to the maximum of $5,000.

Over the course of the 41 consecutive winning hands that followed, they rinsed their hosts to the tune of $1,536,700 (£974,816).

The casino then realised what was going on and dozens of staff began to surround the table to try and figure out how the players were winning - but try as they might, they could see no evidence of cheating.

The flow of winning hands did eventually dry up, and while nine of the gamblers had been allowed to cash in their chips and leave, the remaining five - whose winnings totalled over $970,000 - were refused their money.

Security staff then turned to figuring out what they thought was "a sophisticated swindling and cheating scheme", a task they went about in a highly disturbing manner. One man from Brooklyn was woken in the middle of the night, physically restrained and kept in his room (without food or water) for eight hours while his belongings were searched.

Eventually, however, the culprit was discovered: a batch of cards from the supplier which had supposedly been pre-shuffled, but which had been sent to the casino in standard sequential order.

The casino is suing the card supplier, as you might expect - but they are also suing the gamblers, claiming that they have no right to be paid.

Ironically, they are relying on a law designed to protect gamblers from unscrupulous casinos. New Jersey law insists that odds for all games be fair, but the rule applies to the casinos as much as it does the punters. Given that the odds were stacked in favour of the punters, the casino is hoping to escape their huge bill.

The gamblers' lawyer, Benjamin Dash, is having none of it: "The Golden Nugget appealed to gamblers to come in and play games licensed and sanctioned by the state of New Jersey," he said.

"My clients did exactly that, and then were denied their winnings. There is absolutely no law in New Jersey that would permit the Golden Nugget to declare the game illegal because it failed to provide shuffled cards."

     
  21-Aug-12, 23:46   #2
  +1 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
fucking hell - you would think they could just wear it aye. Whats a $1m to the Golden Nugget? What a bunch of cunts.

     
  22-Aug-12, 00:24   #3
  0 
teddybears73 
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 3181
fucking typical of those casinos,they're alright taking our/your money but when some lucky joe wins a wad they try everything not to pay up.
the fucking casino should be charged with kidnapping that poor bloke,at least.

     
  22-Aug-12, 02:32   #4
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Confused

Why would a casino rely on pre-shuffled decks when they have card shuffling machines?

How did the dealer not notice the same card order occurring if the gamblers managed to?

How did the casino staff not figure it out straight away when they watched the table or the casino cctv?

This story makes no sense to me.

     
  22-Aug-12, 03:53   #5
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by awood88:
Confused

Why would a casino rely on pre-shuffled decks when they have card shuffling machines?

How did the dealer not notice the same card order occurring if the gamblers managed to?

How did the casino staff not figure it out straight away when they watched the table or the casino cctv?

This story makes no sense to me.


yeah i was wondering all of those things too, must have been a pretty daft dealer.

     
  22-Aug-12, 04:38   #6
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 6235
That's what happening, if you trust your supplier. What is the big deal in shuffleing the cards yourself? They have to do it anyway, after they were used the first time.

     
  22-Aug-12, 08:05   #7
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
so what did the customers do illegal in order to for them to give their winnings back to the casino? they came to the tables and played the game, that's it- what's the problem here? if casino screwed up at running the game "properly" it's their problem, not the customers ain't it? would like to see my local casino to screw up similarly Big Smile

     
  22-Aug-12, 09:33   #8
  0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1346
Looks to me the casino made the mistake and therefor the players should get their money.

They were just lucky and smart enough to take advantage of the situation.

In the past there was a simular fact in belgium's lottery (lotto) on television.

There were 6 balls out and nobody had noticed that there was 1 ball not entered into the drumat the start. This could be seen on the TV-images. The winner of the 6 right numbers was not paid as other players requested their money back as it was as 1 number was not included.

The lottery did a 2 nd draw , and the first was cancelled.
The winners of the first game did a lawsuit vs the lottery and i thought they got a compensation but not the normal amount of money they would have won.

     
  22-Aug-12, 15:27   #9
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
The shuffling machines exist for many years now and they used shuffled cards from a supplier?
Is that a joke ?
I find that hard to believe.
So how many different decks they are using in one day? lol

And suing them? for winning? because the cards were not shuffled properly ?
And that was a cheat or something by the players?
I hope if the case reach the court rooms the moment the judge see whats going on
to rule in favor of the players and grant them interest too, for all the time that passed
without having the money lol

     
  23-Aug-12, 20:24   #10
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by Mober:
The shuffling machines exist for many years now and they used shuffled cards from a supplier?
Is that a joke ?
I find that hard to believe.
So how many different decks they are using in one day? lol

And suing them? for winning? because the cards were not shuffled properly ?
And that was a cheat or something by the players?
I hope if the case reach the court rooms the moment the judge see whats going on
to rule in favor of the players and grant them interest too, for all the time that passed
without having the money lol


Exactly.

If they buy preshuffled cards and don't check them - thats asking for trouble lol.

Casino's are legal mobsters...sheisters, same with bookies and any company involved with gambling.

     
  24-Aug-12, 07:19   #11
  0 
B1gfoot 

Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 6714
According to the complaint, they passed money to each other and bet over posting limits...don't see how that is the gamblers fault.
It is a classic case of greed, 41 consecutive winning hands...
Should have cashed in earlier and ran.

     
  24-Aug-12, 15:09   #12
  0 
erru9107 
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 910
Doesn't anyone take into considderation that, no matter how small, the slight chance that the cards were actually shuffled? Theoretically it is possivle to shuffle a deck of cards and have it come out as if it wasn't shuffled. Not saying that is the case here, just pointing out the remote chance of that actually happening.

In any case, the casino screwed up, not the players. The players didn't cheat or do anything to void the play. They followed the rules and played the cards as they were dealt. They realized a pattern and used it. It's the same with Black Jack really. Counting cards isn't illeagal or against the rules, the casinos just doesn't want you to do so they do what they can: ban you from their property. But even so, they're not allowed to deny you your winnings.

Edited by erru9107 (Friday, August 24, 2012 @ 15:13 GMT)


     
  24-Aug-12, 19:55   #13
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by erru9107:
Doesn't anyone take into considderation that, no matter how small, the slight chance that the cards were actually shuffled? Theoretically it is possivle to shuffle a deck of cards and have it come out as if it wasn't shuffled. Not saying that is the case here, just pointing out the remote chance of that actually happening.

In any case, the casino screwed up, not the players. The players didn't cheat or do anything to void the play. They followed the rules and played the cards as they were dealt. They realized a pattern and used it. It's the same with Black Jack really. Counting cards isn't illeagal or against the rules, the casinos just doesn't want you to do so they do what they can: ban you from their property. But even so, they're not allowed to deny you your winnings.


If you shuffled decks for many many hands theoretically yeah it's possible.

BUT the chances will be billions to one probably, therefore it clearly points to a error, however in a legal case the defence would definitely using the 'it's theoretically possible' line.

     
  24-Aug-12, 20:24   #14
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
however you look at this story- players haven't done anything wrong, even if they spotted weakness- is it their problem that casino screws up? are players responsible for casino operations and are they paid for this Big Smile there are people who's job is to spot such situations and fix the problem- if they don't do their work properly- they are the ones casino should sue imho

     
  24-Aug-12, 21:04   #15
  0 
madpoker 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 153
Posted by noonlion:
Posted by Mober:
The shuffling machines exist for many years now and they used shuffled cards from a supplier?
Is that a joke ?
I find that hard to believe.
So how many different decks they are using in one day? lol

And suing them? for winning? because the cards were not shuffled properly ?
And that was a cheat or something by the players?
I hope if the case reach the court rooms the moment the judge see whats going on
to rule in favor of the players and grant them interest too, for all the time that passed
without having the money lol


Exactly.

If they buy preshuffled cards and don't check them - thats asking for trouble lol.

Casino's are legal mobsters...sheisters, same with bookies and any company involved with gambling.



surely you dont mean poker sites are ripping us off Aww crap! Aww crap!
i think bingo site are rigged

     
  25-Aug-12, 06:36   #16
  0 
ulster 
Joined: Sep '11
Location: Australia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 13
judge judy would chuck that out of court on the punters behalves lol

     
  25-Aug-12, 15:33   #17
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by madpoker:
Posted by noonlion:
Posted by Mober:
The shuffling machines exist for many years now and they used shuffled cards from a supplier?
Is that a joke ?
I find that hard to believe.
So how many different decks they are using in one day? lol

And suing them? for winning? because the cards were not shuffled properly ?
And that was a cheat or something by the players?
I hope if the case reach the court rooms the moment the judge see whats going on
to rule in favor of the players and grant them interest too, for all the time that passed
without having the money lol


Exactly.

If they buy preshuffled cards and don't check them - thats asking for trouble lol.

Casino's are legal mobsters...sheisters, same with bookies and any company involved with gambling.



surely you dont mean poker sites are ripping us off Aww crap! Aww crap!
i think bingo site are rigged


I didn't say poker sites are ripping us off - but essentially a break even player with no RB still loses money..

But there's a reason all poker sites are run from tax havens with loopholes and all sorts in their laws...

     
  8-Sep-12, 03:36   #18
  0 
mcedger 
Joined: Feb '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 48
btw in baccarat a new deck is used in every hand. i remember reading it in an asian orientated gambling magazine. after each game the deck is thrown away. they're always cheap paper decks. its very big in macau. just thought i'd clear that up for you.

     
  8-Sep-12, 11:29   #19
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
Posted by mcedger:
btw in baccarat a new deck is used in every hand. i remember reading it in an asian orientated gambling magazine. after each game the deck is thrown away. they're always cheap paper decks. its very big in macau. just thought i'd clear that up for you.

interesting point- even if a new deck is used after each game, using it pre-shuffled from suppliers or putting it through a shuffling machine is another thing. from the point of time wasted i cannot say much time is lost when shuffling cards in machine, so the only point why casinos don't want to do this is the fact they like pre-shuffled deck for some reason

     
  8-Sep-12, 16:07   #20
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
Yes thats true about baccarat.
They cannot not to throw away the deck lol
Have you ever watched live play of baccarat in a casino especially when
Asian players are involved?
The players themselves destroy the cards that are dealt to them.
First time i saw that i was like wth? lol
I asked and they told me its pretty common and like a rule when they play Smile

     
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