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Is it possible to win an MTT sitting out all of the final table?
 

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  23-Aug-12, 00:37   #1
Is it possible to win an MTT sitting out the final table? 0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Is it theoretically possible to finish 1st place in an MTT if you sit out the whole of the final table? Obviously it's unlikely but is it possible if you consider every eventuality?

I'm not looking for a definite answer. I'm just throwing it out there.

     
  23-Aug-12, 02:53   #2
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Technically: yes - it's definitely possible.

In a speed/turbo game it's more likely - since the blinds go up faster, it reaches the point quicker where everyone has 1bb or less and you're no longer at a disadvantage by being sat-out.

Depends too - if you were already short stacked when the FT began and you sat-out the whole time, it would be ridiculously unlikely that you would win - especially in a deep stacked event. If you had a giant stack and were able to sit-out comfortable until HU - then it's a different story, but you would have to be very lucky.

     
  23-Aug-12, 05:21   #3
  0 
Mysik86 

Joined: Nov '11
Location: Poland
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 773
Theoretically everything in poker is possible. It's possible to got Royal Flush 100th times in a row Blink But I didn't see anything, who got it. This is pure mathematic Smile

And back to your question - when you're in turbo MTT and you have enormous stack - it's possible. All of players may kill themselves and you will win Smile

But question - what for? Don't you like the FT or something?

     
  23-Aug-12, 10:45   #4
  0 
MIGO14 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1235
Theoretically maybe it is possible.
But practically I don´t think so.
How shall it work when it comes to HU ???
Your opponent will win every hand and get all blinds purely by minraisung every hand.


     
  23-Aug-12, 11:31   #5
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8633
it depends what do you mean by saying win- to be in the money, or to win 1-st place? this changes situation quite dramatically- if you have a decent stack and there are lets say 5 places paid, you can sit out and probably will end up in the money, depending on the tourney structure, if you want to take the first place by sitting out it is possible in only way- you must have more chips than every opponent of yours at the final table and every single of your opponents must sit out too Big Smile

     
  23-Aug-12, 12:02   #6
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by pochui:
if you want to take the first place by sitting out it is possible in only way- you must have more chips than every opponent of yours at the final table and every single of your opponents must sit out too Big Smile


Incorrect- once you're down to only 1 big blind / small blind / ante (which ever is relevant) you're all-in by default and you'll get to see a show-down... So 'in theory' you can win despite all your other opponent being actively stealing your blinds.. simply because every time you get down to a final blind/ante and go allin - you have a chance to win the hand.. And since it's a tournament the blinds continually raise, so after a while everyone will be left with only 1 ante and will be allin in every hand, at that point, the luckiest player would win.

     
  23-Aug-12, 12:21   #7
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8633
wow never thought about that, nice one jess

     
  23-Aug-12, 12:21   #8
  0 
madpoker 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 153
i came second when my internet connection decided to stop i was chip leader and i managed to get back in as the last hand was played won £25 Aww crap! Aww crap! Worship Worship

but a few years ago on ultimatebet in the freerolls they used to sit out and the game would play for hours going backwards and forwards with no one winning Confused Shock Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

     
  23-Aug-12, 12:48   #9
  0 
MIGO14 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1235
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by pochui:
if you want to take the first place by sitting out it is possible in only way- you must have more chips than every opponent of yours at the final table and every single of your opponents must sit out too Big Smile


Incorrect- once you're down to only 1 big blind / small blind / ante (which ever is relevant) you're all-in by default and you'll get to see a show-down... So 'in theory' you can win despite all your other opponent being actively stealing your blinds.. simply because every time you get down to a final blind/ante and go allin - you have a chance to win the hand.. And since it's a tournament the blinds continually raise, so after a while everyone will be left with only 1 ante and will be allin in every hand, at that point, the luckiest player would win.



Well again, in pure theory this can happen.
Practically I still say no. How many situations with 1 BB left you have to win until the blinds are that high that your active opponent can lose the tourney ?
I guess it has to be hundreds, because of the fact that your opponent can steal from you the blinds about every ten seconds.

     
  23-Aug-12, 13:07   #10
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
First of all, I'd like to say obviously it's possible if everyone else is sat out too but my question really was is it possible to win with only you sat out. You are big stack going in to the final table and you get blinded out until you're all-in every hand. Let's also assume that your opponent when it gets down to heads up will know what he's doing and will be able to manipulate the game what ever way he likes, run the clock down, fold his hand where possible, not that I see any reason why he would do this.

Posted by jessthehuman:
Technically: yes - it's definitely possible.

In a speed/turbo game it's more likely - since the blinds go up faster, it reaches the point quicker where everyone has 1bb or less and you're no longer at a disadvantage by being sat-out.


Sorry Jess but I have to point out one key error. Just the fact that the big blind is bigger than everyone's stack would not be enough. For instance if person A is sat out with 10 000 chips left and person B has 25 000 chips left and the blinds are 10 000, 20 000 with person A in the big blind what would happen? Assuming Person A is so lucky to win every hand when all-in, they double up the first hand and get 20 000 in total. The next hand they post a small blind and have 10 000 left. Person B is automatically all-in, is shorter than Person A and has less than 1 bb. but person A cannot call the extra 5000 so folds and that takes up back to where we started. Person A with 10 000 and Person B with 25 000 and the button on Person B.

Now obviously the blinds at some point will go up again so this isn't an infinite loop but it did occur to me that there may be some way to prevent either player from winning. I figured though in the end that it wasn't possible. Of course I agree with you this is all in theory as mathematically it is very very unlikely. I think even in a turbo for the blinds to get that big you would have already been forced all-in over 100 times.

Edited by awood88 (Thursday, August 23, 2012 @ 13:13 GMT)


     
  23-Aug-12, 15:35   #11
  0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1343
Theoretically it could be possible if all players are sitting out

Bus as there are active players they will notice the sitouts and take advantage (iafter 15 min in freerolls i start looking for sitouts and try to get theis blinds by putting a raise on the table.

So especially when your HU, the other player will win if he keeps active

     
  23-Aug-12, 15:56   #12
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10021
I think it was obvious that the question was about being the only one sitting out,
not the whole table Smile
If the whole table (all the players) is sitting out of course you can.
If you are the only one sitting out you cant.

     
  23-Aug-12, 19:57   #13
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
The answer is no, i mean you could get on the second place but thst just in theory, once you are heads up the other player remaining will take your chips...

It hapend to me tohit the final table and only three or four hands 6 players were eliminated, i think i finished 2nd.

     
  23-Aug-12, 20:48   #14
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by awood88:
Is it theoretically possible to finish 1st place in an MTT if you sit out the whole of the final table?

Of course.

It's easy to imagine all remaining players having 1 chip, and you having all the other chips. The first hand played on the final table everyone will be all-in (by paying the ante), if you're the big blind, and end up winning the hand, you've won the tournament.

This is the extreme scenario, but it illustrates that it's possible. Less extreme situations are also possible.

I recently got to a final table where the smallest stack had about 1 BB and the biggest stack was about 2 BB. That would be a situation where someone sitting out might have won.

Also I won 1st place in a rebuy tournament recently, by sitting out (more or less), but the top 2 places were of equal value, so there was no heads up, and I had a huge chip lead.

     
  23-Aug-12, 21:16   #15
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by awood88:
First of all, I'd like to say obviously it's possible if everyone else is sat out too but my question really was is it possible to win with only you sat out. You are big stack going in to the final table and you get blinded out until you're all-in every hand. Let's also assume that your opponent when it gets down to heads up will know what he's doing and will be able to manipulate the game what ever way he likes, run the clock down, fold his hand where possible, not that I see any reason why he would do this.

Posted by jessthehuman:
Technically: yes - it's definitely possible.

In a speed/turbo game it's more likely - since the blinds go up faster, it reaches the point quicker where everyone has 1bb or less and you're no longer at a disadvantage by being sat-out.


Sorry Jess but I have to point out one key error. Just the fact that the big blind is bigger than everyone's stack would not be enough. For instance if person A is sat out with 10 000 chips left and person B has 25 000 chips left and the blinds are 10 000, 20 000 with person A in the big blind what would happen? Assuming Person A is so lucky to win every hand when all-in, they double up the first hand and get 20 000 in total. The next hand they post a small blind and have 10 000 left. Person B is automatically all-in, is shorter than Person A and has less than 1 bb. but person A cannot call the extra 5000 so folds and that takes up back to where we started. Person A with 10 000 and Person B with 25 000 and the button on Person B.

Now obviously the blinds at some point will go up again so this isn't an infinite loop but it did occur to me that there may be some way to prevent either player from winning. I figured though in the end that it wasn't possible. Of course I agree with you this is all in theory as mathematically it is very very unlikely. I think even in a turbo for the blinds to get that big you would have already been forced all-in over 100 times.


Yeah I think the odds against it are so incredibly unlikely that in all the online games going on, it probably won't ever happen.. Or at least, maybe only ever once or twice (in a super-turbo game).

And you're right about my error there, I corrected in my second post to say - "when everybody is down to 1 ante or less". At that stage, everyones all-in and sees the showdown.


------------
Posted by Macubaas:
The answer is no, i mean you could get on the second place but thst just in theory, once you are heads up the other player remaining will take your chips...


The problem is - once you're really short and the big blind / small blind / ante puts you allin, you get to see a show down and the other player can't 'steal' your chips. So in theory - if you win enough show-downs and the blind level raises enough that you both end up allin - then you 'could' win. Statistically about the only way this would ever happen would be in an ultra-turbo game.. On PKR they have turbo SNGs where the blinds literally go up every hand and it's actually really common for the games to end this way (everyone all-in by default as a result of blinds & antes).

     
  24-Aug-12, 04:50   #16
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
possible you can win 2nd but not 1st place because your opponent HU will get all your chips....even when blinds are high.because his stack will almost be bigger than that of the blinds because he bust all other opponents to reach HU..I assume that he has the biggest stack and when your 1bb left he will just call and win the hand....

     
  24-Aug-12, 05:28   #17
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by ayaraled:

..I assume that he has the biggest stack and when your 1bb left he will just call and win the hand....



Why will he win the hand?

     
  24-Aug-12, 14:27   #18
  0 
erru9107 
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 910
Well, I don't know how it works on other poker sites them party poker but on that dite, the blinds don't go any higher then 75.000/150.000+ante so if the full chip count is 451.000+4x ante, it's impossible to win by just sitting out when you're heads-up.

Let's do some math.. Your opponent will win any hand that doesn't put you all-in just by a min raise. So basically, when you're forced all-in with 150.000+ante, your oppenent will just call you and still have 151.000+1x ante in his stack meaning that even if you win, the next hand he'll just go all-in with his 1.000 extra and you will auto fold. This gives him the chip lead ones again and he can basically just keep that up until he lucks out and kicks you out of the tournament.

Bottom line is that it all depends on how big the field and starting stack is. If that is in your favour, then theoretically yes, you can win. If the chips aren't in your favour then.no, there is no possible way for you to win.

     
  24-Aug-12, 22:46   #19
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by erru9107:
Well, I don't know how it works on other poker sites them party poker but on that dite, the blinds don't go any higher then 75.000/150.000+ante so if the full chip count is 451.000+4x ante, it's impossible to win by just sitting out when you're heads-up.


I did consider that.. Most MTTs on PKR the blinds DO go high enough to put everyone all-in by default eventually. But of course you're right, if the blind-level cap is lower enough in the game for this not to happen, then it becomes impossible, so long as your opponent is trying to win.

     
  24-Aug-12, 22:56   #20
  0 
erru9107 
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 910
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by erru9107:
Well, I don't know how it works on other poker sites them party poker but on that dite, the blinds don't go any higher then 75.000/15t0.000+ante so if the full chip count is 451.000+4x ante, it's impossible to win by just sitting out when you're heads-up.


I did consider that.. Most MTTs on PKR the blinds DO go high enough to put everyone all-in by default eventually. But of course you're right, if the blind-level cap is lower enough in the game for this not to happen, then it becomes impossible, so long as your opponent is trying to win.

Well in that case then yes, it is theoretically possible to win by sitting out on the final table at PKR Tongue

     
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