Is it possible to not collude even slightly with your best friend?
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Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Is it possible to not let friendship affect your play at all when playing poker? I've heard the argument that two friends can play on the same table without collusion, they in fact play harder against each other cos the bragging rights and the personal satisfaction are worth more than the money. Plus they know each other's playing style so they are likely to clash in more hands.
But what if you were at the final table of the EPT with your best friend or in a tournament where you and your friend are both close to qualifying for an amazing package to play a live tournament you would both love to play? Even if you want to play fair and don't want to go easy on any player how can you not hold back at least subconsciously. If for example your friend bets out on a low flop and you have pocket kings, would you be more inclined to call rather than raise. Or if your friend raises preflop and you have AQ and someone else calls before you, you might be more inclined to get out the way cos you don't want to clash with your friend.
If this is collusion would other players be justified in complaining about you both being on the same table?
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
Some times feelings is hard to overpass, so at some point a "collusion" of some type may happen. To them it may seem natural but to others not. It all depends of course on the characters of the players and their ethics.
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
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I picked the first option. In my opinion, if you both actually were good friends you should just say that "hey, let the best man win" and there would be no hard feelings beteen them. Of course this is in a perfect world and as you all know, the world is far from perfect. In any case, if I had a friend of mine at the same table, I would no doubt play him the exact same way as I would have played anyone.
A good example of that is that ones in a $50 freeroll, I actually ended up at the same table as my girlfriend so I just said to her, using these exact words (of course in swedish): "Game on!"
In any case, before you tell me that the first option is wrong and that it still happens, the question wasn't if it happens or not, it's if it's possible or not which I most certainly think it is, at least in theory.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
Of course it is possible. Sometimes we know an oponent so well that we might suspect he has nothing and still we let him take the pot, but this can't be considered colusion. Think about a regular DoN with 10. Sometimes you get to the point of being only 6 at the table with one or two with a lot less chips than the others and the strongest ones will play in a way of waiting for one of them to fall, like if it was colusion, but it not, it's pure strategy.
Posted by awood88: Is it possible to not let friendship affect your play at all when playing poker?
First of all for awood, for yet another interesting topic. How long will you be able to keep this up? Keep 'em coming...
I think it's close to impossible to play your friend exactly the same as anyone else at the table, even if you give it your best shot.
One could argue it's just +EV play to favour your friend, since, if you play your cards right (both literally as well as metaphorically), he might buy you a beer afterwards, that is worth more than the equity you give up (depending on his generosity, the size of the buyin, and the size of the beer)...
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1457
I play poker with my friends frequently (live at someones home)
We are always playing for peanuts (5€ buy-in and rebuy) The main idea is it should be amusing for all and even if you loose a 20€, a night out will cost more. You should not try to win a lot of money from friends ,better do that from strangers.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
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When I play my friends I destroy them, quite funny as they still insist its a game of luck. For me collusion would not cross my mind, quite the opposite, knowing my friends I know there weaknesses and would exploit them, too competitive.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 3361
You ask a question that is hard for me to reply truthfully due to the fact if, he were to read this he'd be pizzed, but the truth is he's a sore loser. I guess no matter we end up staying friends after 25 years of knowing this, but an example just occurred two days ago.
we happen to sit at the same table on Carbon quite frequently it seems, but he went all in with a Q,Q (of course I don't know at the time) and I called with a 3,3. Well you know I hit a third 3 on the flop, but we're already allin with no other callers. I win the hand and he did have more chips so he still playing. He was bitching about me calling until finally we were moved.
This player used to be on BRM and quite the arument thread took place about a year ago. Some may remember this player by the name "Jokester". He's dead serious at any game though cards, golf, bowling, aggrevation and can't deal with losing. We manage to keep our friendship!
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Poland
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1081
I choose the second options... Friends are friends, but on play in high stack or big tournament, I don't know if anyone would choose friend higher than HUGE amount of cash...
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Australia
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 155
There are no friends at the poker table. I play situations in poker and make decisions which i believe to be the best choices regardless of who i am playing against. In fact, if i am playing against a friend i will be even more determined to win against them. For example if i was in a big tourtement against a friend he has KKs i have AAs he goes all in i will snap call i wont pause or say anything beforehand. Collusion in poker has no place and i despise anyone who soft plays as it undermines the integrity and fairness of the game.
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Germany
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 2219
Today it is possible to play with your frined in homegames at stars and so you don´t need to play with your friend in realmoney games at the same tables. But if you play fair with your friend, there are no problems.
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 747
i would agree i would always play nomally against my friends and am happy to call them if they go all in and ive got the cards, but to be honest there is no way i would put a good friend (friends outside of poker) all in on the bubble of a high stakes tourney if i didnt have too, and if you say you would then i dont believe you.
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
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In some respects i'd expect collusion to go down playing with a friend, because you should know each others games well. (BTW are you doing research for a dissertation?lol)
Perhaps though there's the subconscious thought when you're faced with a raise from an ally that you'll fold when 90% of the time you'd call or raise against anyone else.
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
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Posted by takingdrugs: i would agree i would always play nomally against my friends and am happy to call them if they go all in and ive got the cards, but to be honest there is no way i would put a good friend (friends outside of poker) all in on the bubble of a high stakes tourney if i didnt have too, and if you say you would then i dont believe you.
I agree , on the bubble i would not play versus my best friend, especially when your avg position or better. The theory of no friends in poker is nice but very difficult in practice.
So better not play poker with big money with your friends. I do not wanne see a friend home when he lost 1/4 of his monthly income ( and especially not if he d loose it to me)
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
I believe what you're referring to, is known in the poker world as implicit collusion. It's in the "grey area" of collusion, as it's not directly planned out per 'se. You see it a lot in sngs, where 2 big stacks will call a short stack on the bubble, and then check it down. While neither of the players directly communicate it, they are still effectively teaming up against him. Of course it's in their best interest, as either of them betting could push the other out of the hand, lowering their chances of knocking out the shorty.
It's still collusion, as the definition of collusion very clearly states "any act where 2 or more players act in co-operation to effectively lower another players chance of winning". However it's basically accepted as something that happens, and pretty much EVERYONE does it. If you read the TOS of any poker site however, they can and DO act on implicit collusion, and you can guarantee anyone caught doing it will likely lose their accounts and or funds won.
As for playing "easy" against friends, I say hell no. I come to the table to win, and I don't care who I have to crush to make that happen. There's no room at the tables for friends, only potential fishies to milk for every penny they've got.
If a friend is gunna bitch that you shouldn't have knocked him out, then he should't be playing poker with you.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
The example of the two big stacks retribution gave is one that happens a lot. And even in some cases you see players in online poker saying just check it If there is no communication you cant say a single thing, but when you see them chatting about it, its straight forwarded to the support. Nice example btw.
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 1277
Implicit collusion isn't even really an issue - it's not even really deserving of a label.
Poker gets strategic, and the weakest person at the table in terms of chips is going to get hammered by everyone.
If there's 3 left at a FT, two have BS and there's the SS, it's just nature that the weakest gets picked on. It's not unfair because everyone does it and you'd be stupid not to.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
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Posts: 1490
Posted by noonlion: Implicit collusion isn't even really an issue - it's not even really deserving of a label.
Poker gets strategic, and the weakest person at the table in terms of chips is going to get hammered by everyone.
If there's 3 left at a FT, two have BS and there's the SS, it's just nature that the weakest gets picked on. It's not unfair because everyone does it and you'd be stupid not to.
Just part of the game.
Well, good strategy or not, it's still technically cheating by definition. Poker is NOT a team game, and any action where 2 or more players act against a single player is in fact cheating. As mober said, it's one thing if people just do it without verbally stating it, but if they actually do say "hey let's both call and check it down" then it's definitely something that should be reported. It may be a fine line, but there's a difference between doing something because it's "good strategy" and openly agreeing to do so with another player.
Personally, I prefer keeping the shorty around, as their presence allows me to chip away at the other players who are playing tighter waiting for the shorty to bust out. Lot's of times you'll see a few orbits where the shorty will survive and possibly double up, meanwhile the other players who have been folding are now short stacked as well.
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
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Posted by retribution:
Posted by noonlion: Implicit collusion isn't even really an issue - it's not even really deserving of a label.
Poker gets strategic, and the weakest person at the table in terms of chips is going to get hammered by everyone.
If there's 3 left at a FT, two have BS and there's the SS, it's just nature that the weakest gets picked on. It's not unfair because everyone does it and you'd be stupid not to.
Just part of the game.
Well, good strategy or not, it's still technically cheating by definition. Poker is NOT a team game, and any action where 2 or more players act against a single player is in fact cheating. As mober said, it's one thing if people just do it without verbally stating it, but if they actually do say "hey let's both call and check it down" then it's definitely something that should be reported. It may be a fine line, but there's a difference between doing something because it's "good strategy" and openly agreeing to do so with another player.
Personally, I prefer keeping the shorty around, as their presence allows me to chip away at the other players who are playing tighter waiting for the shorty to bust out. Lot's of times you'll see a few orbits where the shorty will survive and possibly double up, meanwhile the other players who have been folding are now short stacked as well.
If they explicitly agree to follow a plan then that's definitely outwith the rules.
But doing what comes naturally, picking on the short stack as a duo but not a team isn't anything dodgy.
I agree with keeping the SS around sometimes, like instead of raising to steal the blind on their turn I'll let it ride. It's definitely a good tactic depending on what the other players at the table are like.
Against a tight table I'll keep them in, if there's a lot of action I'm thinking I'll get their chips before someone else does.
Joined: Feb '12
Location: United Kingdom
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i have a lot of experience with this as i go to pub league games with my good friend 2-4 nights a week. we both just agree to try not get in each others way if we can help it. yesterday for instance i limped in on the button of a family pot with 64o flop comes down 6 6 10 it checks round to me and i raise small for 125 into 300. my friend who is sb check raises it to 400, everyone else gets out of the way and i call knowing he is likely beating me. i call his 600 raise on the 8 turn in the hope of out drawing his obv better 6 now, when the river bricks i fold to his all in and show my 6 to the table, 1 guy tried to imply he nudged me under the table but it was obv i should have folded earlier really, he shows us A6c for the nut trips lol. 4 weeks ago we ended up heads up in a playoff for a regional final, me with 80%+ of the chips and he ended up coming back to beat me . was gutted. i just know his game better than anyone elses and vice versa. we both just show each other a little extra respect for each others raises but understand if you have a hand that you HAVE to play then u have to. in home games its all fair game its just the leagues and bigger tys we appreciate that it can get quite expensive to play regularly. also if 1 of us ever has a good finish when we're both in a tournament we will sort out the other a bit of cash, makes you have a vested interest in each other doing well but not too the point of actual cheating as far as im concrned. its just not about being ruthless with your friends .
for awood, for yet another interesting topic. How long will you be able to keep this up? Keep 'em coming...
. was gutted. i just know his game better than anyone elses and vice versa. we both just show each other a little extra respect for each others raises but understand if you have a hand that you HAVE to play then u have to. in home games its all fair game its just the leagues and bigger tys we appreciate that it can get quite expensive to play regularly. also if 1 of us ever has a good finish when we're both in a tournament we will sort out the other a bit of cash, makes you have a vested interest in each other doing well but not too the point of actual cheating as far as im concrned. its just not about being ruthless with your friends 
