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Would you prefer to see a flop against a player with 4bb more or 4bb less?
 

  5-Sep-12, 01:17   #1
To cover or be covered 0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
In a typical hand in the middle of a tournament, would you rather see a flop with a player with 4bb more than you or 4 bb less?

Obviously there are lots of factors to consider such as how close to the bubble you are, whether you are big stacks or small stacks and the structure of the tournament. But in general... tournaments are all about survival right? So when you face a decision about going all-in your tournament life itself has to count for something. But then again if you are left with only 4 bb you are practically as good as out anyway so wouldn't it be better to have the extra 4bb all-in and get maximum value from your chips. On the other hand the very fact you can cover a player might give you more arsenal to outplay them, unless of course they are looking for a double or nothing option.

Any thoughts?

     
  5-Sep-12, 02:09   #2
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
meh.. purely situational.. In more marginal spots, in might be better to have them covered, so you've got 4bb left if you lose (depending on stage of tourney, 4bb might be enough to leave you in the game with a chance). Obviously if you've got a monster hand, it's probably better to maximise the amount of chips you can win.

Ultimately I don't think + / - 4bb makes a huge difference in most stages of most tournaments.

One other thing, sometimes having the short stack is an advantage simply because it's easier to get bet-size once your stack is short and your options are more limited. That being said 'effective stack sizes' are what counts, so if they pot is HU you both have the same effective size anyway.

     
  5-Sep-12, 02:52   #3
  0 
Redvulture61 
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Australia
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 155
4bb less or 4bb more does not really make a difference. I will take either where i have the better hand.

     
  5-Sep-12, 04:22   #4
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jessthehuman:
meh.. purely situational.. In more marginal spots, in might be better to have them covered, so you've got 4bb left if you lose (depending on stage of tourney, 4bb might be enough to leave you in the game with a chance). Obviously if you've got a monster hand, it's probably better to maximise the amount of chips you can win.

Ultimately I don't think + / - 4bb makes a huge difference in most stages of most tournaments.

One other thing, sometimes having the short stack is an advantage simply because it's easier to get bet-size once your stack is short and your options are more limited. That being said 'effective stack sizes' are what counts, so if they pot is HU you both have the same effective size anyway.


Purely situational indeed. In most cases, I'd rather me have him covered that way I at least have 4BB left to hope for a miracle. Chip and a chair as the saying goes.

However, I believe having him "covered" is a little less relevant if you're UTG. If you lose, you may have 4BB left, but you're also the next in the blinds and basically forced to play for your stack anyways. Sure you're still left with a shot at making something happen, but I absolutely HATE having to call ATC just because I'm in a situation like that.

Another factor is, of course, ICM. If next player out bursts the bubble or offers a pay jump, of course you want to have him covered 100% of the time.

     
  5-Sep-12, 04:55   #5
  0 
rbdflyboy 

Joined: Apr '11
Location: Canada
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1222
Can't count how many times I've been in this spot...it's sickening. As Reti says its all about position.
getting heads up with the big stack in a fold/shove senario. In your example I'm not putting my tourney life on the line or cripple myself....I don't care who's software says what. Been bounced so many times NTM playing premium hands...I don't do it anymore. I'm just not lucky so I do what I must to cash and take it from there. I see min cashes and split pots the same way...better than nothing.

     
  5-Sep-12, 06:34   #6
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8623
since it's a tournament and if it's not a knockout tourney i would rather go all-in with someone who has lees than me- this way at least i will have something to bounce back with- doesn't mean that i will, but i at least i am left with a chance, so option b- 4bb less than me. with knockouts its obviously other way round- you want to get his bounty- so you want to see him having less chips than you

     
  5-Sep-12, 07:15   #7
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
I have to agree with one of the post above, 4bb it not a big difference at all considering you arein the middle part of tournament...

If the difference would be bigger the situation would be other, i mean you need to have different strategies when you play against a short stack vs a big stack.

     
  5-Sep-12, 15:59   #8
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
When puting the things in hipotetical terms, you will always prefer to see a flop with that who has more chips than you: if you are going to see the flop, that means you probably have a good hand or you think you can take the best out of your opponent from that hand. If he has more chips than you, you will try to maximize your profits. But if he raises, or re-raises, will you be afraid? If so, there was no point in going to try to play that hand. So, if he had less chips, you will have less to win from that hand.

     
  5-Sep-12, 18:40   #9
  0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1342
I think a difference of 4 BB in the middle stage of a turney means nothing.
More important seems to me the stack yor playing with (above avg/ avg/ below avg)

So if I am a bigstack i would try to avoid an all in versus another bigstack (even with AA)
I would do a raise before the flop and see what the flop brings ...

If below AVg I would go allin with a monster hand preflop.

And igf your left with 4 bb you ll need to be very lucky to get into the prices. you ll need to win several allins in a row


     
  6-Sep-12, 15:38   #10
  0 
DaCapo71 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Germany
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 1700
Off course it is a big different if you play a don or a standart sng. In standart sng you can go allin with all paires and connectors and broadway-cards if you play with the m-strategy. In dons´s you can play tighter.

     
  7-Sep-12, 17:39   #11
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Either way it's not good lol.

But nearly always be covering them, that way the pressure is on them, although there's not much pressure on a 4BB move.

I guess sometimes I'd rather shove against the bigger stack as sometimes they are more liekly to call with a wider range - that can only be a good thing.

     
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