Joined: Mar '11
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I posted in a previous thread a few days ago, about how I've decided to move back to playing super turbos. I used to play a shitpile of them back in the FT days, and decided to give them another go, this time on stars. While the structure is a bit different, in the form of antes and blinds, the concept is pretty much the same.
So what I've decided to make this post for, is to discuss shoving and calling ranges in these, starting with early game. Would love anyones opinion on the matter.
So here's what my ranges tend to be early game:
Shove:
EP - 77+, A10s+, AJo+, KQo+
MP - Same as above, but add 66+ and possibly A10o+, K10s+, KJo+
LP - Same as MP except maybe 55+, A8+, K9+, Q10+
Button - Literally any 2 suited or connected and anything 22+
SB - Pretty much the same as button. If it folds to us, we can shove pretty wide profitably.
Call: I'd say our calling range is likely going to be the same across the board, maybe getting a little looser depending on what position is shoving on us.
EP - We're not often facing shoves in EP since we're ususally one of the first to act, but any UTG/UTG+1 shoves are going to be strong so I'd say JJ+, Aj+
MP - Bit looser, but in MP we're still likely facing some strength, so I'd say 10/10+ A10+, KQ+
LP - Not much looser than MP. I'd say add 99+.
If we're in one of the blinds and it folds to the button/co who shoves, we can widen up a bit, assuming that they are going to be shoving a lot wider trying to steal if it's folded around which is usually correct. Button/co steals are usually pretty loose shoves with almost ATC.
Edited by retribution (12 September 2012 @ 06:36 GMT)
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
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I play super-speed on PKR, the stacks are actually quite 'deep' to start with, but the blinds go up literally every hand, so you rapidly approach having only 1 or less big blind.
Not sure what how many bb the starting stacks are for the games you play, but I think a slightly tighter shoving range for early levels if the stacks are >20bb.
------------ On the ones I play, for the first few blinds levels, I generally only shove JJ+ and AQs+ and AKo preflop.
Joined: Mar '11
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Posted by jessthehuman: I play super-speed on PKR, the stacks are actually quite 'deep' to start with, but the blinds go up literally every hand, so you rapidly approach having only 1 or less big blind.
Not sure what how many bb the starting stacks are for the games you play, but I think a slightly tighter shoving range for early levels if the stacks are >20bb.
------------ On the ones I play, for the first few blinds levels, I generally only shove JJ+ and AQs+ and AKo preflop.
I guess I should clarify a bit. Starting stacks are 500 chips, with 3 ante and 10/20 so 25bb to start. Blinds move up every 3 minutes, so while you do start 25bb deep, you're stilll effectively playing as if you start with 10bb.
Joined: Apr '09
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I agree with what you have shown, it seems a fair strategy to a super turbo. The problem is if you will be taking too much risk of not getting those hands on those positions. After all, i don't want to bother you with this, but we are talking about few hands. I never saw a book tellming me how many hands can be delt in Texas Hold'Em, but it's easy to count. You will be playing few.
Joined: Apr '09
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I actually this week took a free 1 week trial membership at Cardrunners.. Just finished watching a video on these exact games, that you're playing.. Guy was multi tabling $7 Hypers, using a HUD. You should check it out if you're getting into them.
------------ FWIW he stated an hourly of about $37 playing the $7 6max hyper turbos.. He wasn't mass-mutlitabling either, I think just 6 tabling.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
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I don't recall ever playing this kind of tourney so it's difficult to comment but I have played tourneys where everyone starts super shortstacked.
I don't think shoving any small pocket pair on the button is right. As you say you loosen your calling range against a button shove, I think this is standard for all players even when they don't know what they are doing. So you will get called nearly half the time by one of the blinds and less than pocket 4s is pretty much always a race at best so why would you risk leaving it to chance when you have nearly a whole rotation to get better opportunities. 89+ I would probably shove and suited cards with one ace or king. Maybe...
EP shove I would say 77 is a bit low depending on how much we need it. I mean if it's the first hand I would fold it as the risk to reward ratio is too high, what calls 25bb that we are beating and is situation of race or 3bb worth it. A little later when we have 15bb EP I would say defo shove it. Pretty much all the bottoms of your shoving ranges would be marginal.
I think it also depends on the stacks of other players. I'm not gonna shove any old hand into someone who has 3bb and no option to fold and if a big stack shoves my calling range is probably gonna be tighter.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
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Posted by jessthehuman: I actually this week took a free 1 week trial membership at Cardrunners.. Just finished watching a video on these exact games, that you're playing.. Guy was multi tabling $7 Hypers, using a HUD. You should check it out if you're getting into them.
------------ FWIW he stated an hourly of about $37 playing the $7 6max hyper turbos.. He wasn't mass-mutlitabling either, I think just 6 tabling.
Yeah the hourly is sick in super/hypers, and because of the speed of them, you don't have to mass table. You can put in the same volume as normals with less tables and less hours which is very appealing. The downside is, the ROI of your solid players is something like 1-5% so most are just grinding for rakeback/bonuses.
I don't think shoving any small pocket pair on the button is right. As you say you loosen your calling range against a button shove, I think this is standard for all players even when they don't know what they are doing. So you will get called nearly half the time by one of the blinds and less than pocket 4s is pretty much always a race at best so why would you risk leaving it to chance when you have nearly a whole rotation to get better opportunities. 89+ I would probably shove and suited cards with one ace or king. Maybe...
Button shoves can be very wide, as due to nash, they have to adjust their calling range, which is something the majority of players don't do properly. In fact, that's why these turbos are so profitable, because players ranges are off by so much. Sure you'll end up in races, but the situations where you do end up dominated or in a race, is offset by the times where you pick up the dead money. Of course this is conditional based on factos such as bubble/stack sizes left etc, but I'd say most of the time button shoves can easily be around 50%+ profitably.
EP shove I would say 77 is a bit low depending on how much we need it. I mean if it's the first hand I would fold it as the risk to reward ratio is too high, what calls 25bb that we are beating and is situation of race or 3bb worth it. A little later when we have 15bb EP I would say defo shove it. Pretty much all the bottoms of your shoving ranges would be marginal.
I'd have to agree that 77 may be a bit loose, and other people tend to suggest 88 or even 99+ from UTG. You will see a lot of people call with just 2 overs like AK/KQ where you are still better than a flip, so I'm really conflicted with where I stand on the range.
I think it also depends on the stacks of other players. I'm not gonna shove any old hand into someone who has 3bb and no option to fold and if a big stack shoves my calling range is probably gonna be tighter.
Well yes of course you have to adjust to the current dynamics of the table. The thing with dealing with micro stacks is adjusting based on where in the tournament you are and the stack sizes of other people as well as yourself. It also depends on whether the micro stack is trying to survive the bubble, or whether they are actually a thinking player who can properly adjust to their situation.
Generally speaking, a micro stacks shove/fold ranges are going to be a lot wider than the other stacks, so it's not hard to adjust accordingly.
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
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Posted by retribution: The downside is, the ROI of your solid players is something like 1-5% so most are just grinding for rakeback/bonuses.
that's a really thin roi, i know that at majority of games when you reach the higher limits roi looks similar to this, but still it's so small- you must have a deep roll if you want to get trough tough times imho. i like the fact that you can play less tables and still get lots of rakeback/bonuses, but these games are tricky...anyway good luck retribution- update us how you're doing
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
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Yeah, I agree it's a very razor thin ROI, which is why theres such a large amount of variance in these. The thinner your red-line, the longer the swings you can expect. As I said prior, a lot of people play these to get rb and bonuses/vpps. I've managed to break about even over 223 games, while clearing a chunk of bonuses. While my red-line is about break-even, I'm ahead in terms of VPP and bonus cleared. Would like to be seeing a profit in them, but I think my ranges are a tad bit rusty. In addition, these play a bit different than the supers did on FT so it's a bit of an adjustment in terms of that. I also think the competition is a lot better at stars than FT, though I haven't really seen any regs in these yet.
Still fairly confident I can profit off these, so long as my roll can sustain the swings. As long as I can clear a bit more of the bonuses I've got, I should be properly rolled and not have to worry so much.
Attached a screeny of my graph. As you can see, SUPER swingy
Volume wise, I've been able to bang out around 15-20 an hour 5 tabling, which is SUPER easy to do.
The most ironic thing is, my swings are far better than they were grinding 50-50's, but I think that's just because I'm terrible at 50-50's. Just can't seem to wrap my head around those, so I just gave up playing them. Besides, the hypers allow me to accumulate VPP's at a much faster rate, and the rake is only 7% as opposed to 10% in the 50-50's.
Edited by retribution (13 September 2012 @ 08:05 GMT)
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 10090
Posted by retribution: Attached a screeny of my graph. As you can see, SUPER swingy
yeah i c- really wayward graph, still need a bit more in volume to get a clearer picture imo, thanks for putting this up- if you continue them will be nice to see graphs anything from 2000+ games
------------
Posted by retribution: The most ironic thing is, my swings are far better than they were grinding 50-50's, but I think that's just because I'm terrible at 50-50's. Just can't seem to wrap my head around those, so I just gave up playing them. Besides, the hypers allow me to accumulate VPP's at a much faster rate, and the rake is only 7% as opposed to 10% in the 50-50's.
lol that's really ironic still i think 7% is way too much for hypers- at very most 5% would be tolerated...i'm not sure about it, but a few limits above what u r playing rake drops to around 3-5 % if i'm not mistaking. as far at 50-50's go- some do grind them regularly for a great profit (see sharkscope leaderboards) but they probably are not your game, so stick at what you enjoy, have fun at it- and good luck.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
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Posted by pochui:
Posted by retribution: Attached a screeny of my graph. As you can see, SUPER swingy
yeah i c- really wayward graph, still need a bit more in volume to get a clearer picture imo, thanks for putting this up- if you continue them will be nice to see graphs anything from 2000+ games
------------
Posted by retribution: The most ironic thing is, my swings are far better than they were grinding 50-50's, but I think that's just because I'm terrible at 50-50's. Just can't seem to wrap my head around those, so I just gave up playing them. Besides, the hypers allow me to accumulate VPP's at a much faster rate, and the rake is only 7% as opposed to 10% in the 50-50's.
lol that's really ironic still i think 7% is way too much for hypers- at very most 5% would be tolerated...i'm not sure about it, but a few limits above what u r playing rake drops to around 3-5 % if i'm not mistaking. as far at 50-50's go- some do grind them regularly for a great profit (see sharkscope leaderboards) but they probably are not your game, so stick at what you enjoy, have fun at it- and good luck.
1000 games is about what is required to get a good idea of what your actual standing is in the supers. I'm fairly confident I'll be around 1-2% ROI by then, if not breakeven. As I said I used to play them on FT, and had a few thousand played and I was positive ROI, so I'm confident I can beat these. The upside to playing on FT was I had RB + ironman/FT bonuses, so It was really worth playing.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
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I played turbos and speeds SNG for a while, can remember i played like a maniac, shoving a lot wider then this, ROI was pretty good, i mostly came in 1st or no price, allmost never 2nd.
