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  28-Sep-12, 00:53   #1
Strange rules of poker. 0 
fcumred 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1238
I saw this happenin a live game, and I couldn't believe what happened, but I checked the rules,and the TD was 100% correct in the action he took.

Basically, a player UTG shoved all in. He was called by a player in mid position. The BB then also called.

Everyone else folded. The turn card came over, and the player on the BB checked. The middle player then says "lets just check it down". The BB nods his head in agreement, and the river card comes over. The dealer then tells everyone to turn their cards over and the player on the BB wins the hand with a pair of 9s.

The dealer then passes the chips to the player who initially went all in, who actually had the worst hand. Cue the other two players going mad. The tournament director is called, and he backs up the dealer, also then giving the other two players a 15 minute penalty for collusion.

I'd never seen this rule, and at first I didn't believe it was correct, but after checking it its correct. If two players make an agreemen to check a hand down its classed as collusion and both their hands are declared dead. This even applies if no one else is involved in pot.

Edited by fcumred (Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 00:54 GMT)


     
  28-Sep-12, 01:42   #2
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Yeah, that sounds about right. Wether the players knew it was wrong or not, they acted as a "team" against a player, and that is 100% against the rules, not to mention scummy. Personally I'd think that the rule should be immediate forfeiture of their entire stack, and a ban from the property. Collussion is cheating, and IMO cheating in any form shouldn't be tolerated.

Kudos to the dealer for making the right call in the face of 2 players freaking out on him, and to the director for upholding the rule. Must have been a shock to the players involved, but hopefully it's a lesson they learned.

     
  28-Sep-12, 04:24   #3
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
I completely agree with TD. That is straight-out collusion they're lucky not to be venue-banned for that s**t.

I go ape-s**t online when people say "just check" or "check it down" when one person is allin in a SNG/MTT etc, obviously it's often the correct play (especially in a DoN bubble) - but it doesn't matter, you can't communicate arrangements like that with other players.

I'm surprised fcumred that you actually find this "strange" and were surprised by it. It's straight-out cheating.

     
  28-Sep-12, 06:21   #4
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
So was this a cash game or tourney? If it was cash I don't understand why they would choose to check it down. Although there is no point in betting with nothing, there is no advantage in taking the player out. This seems like a really spiteful thing to do in that case. If it was a tournament I don't agree with the 15 minute penalty. It should either be expelled from the tourney for out right cheating or just a warning if the ruling comes down in their favour,

To me it seems harsh on the bb. He didn't instigate the collusion. What was he supposed to do? Bet with a middle pair just to show he's not playing soft. We all know this is what happens anyway so why should he be punished for what an idiot says out loud. I would probably rule to ban the middle stack from the table since it sounds like clear foul play though without being there I wouldn't say it's a clear ruling.

I mean how far do you take this? What if a player nods at the other player when saying check? What if a player asks the other if he will call his bet? To my knowledge this isn't bad etiquette if you actually have a hand and are trying to win more chips.

     
  28-Sep-12, 06:51   #5
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2096
Posted by awood88:
So was this a cash game or tourney?


It was a tournament of course because TD stands for Tournament Director.

Poker is not a team game, so I agree with you guys this is cheating. It's almost a non-written rule to check it down in this kind of 3-way all-in situations unless you know you have the best hand and you want to get more value, so I don't get what's the point of saying it out loud in the first place... If I was the guy who first went all-in, I would definetly be mad at the 2 other players.

     
  28-Sep-12, 07:45   #6
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Posted by TheMachineQC:
Posted by awood88:
So was this a cash game or tourney?


It was a tournament of course because TD stands for Tournament Director.


Doh. I knew this too. Still, a 15 minute penalty seems ridiculous to me since this would be a different punishment for various players depending on stack sizes, stye of play and blind level, so it's never fair. I would just get take away their whole stacks if they were indeed cheating.

     
  28-Sep-12, 07:52   #7
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8628
not sure if this is correct- one guy went all-in two others called- they didn't want to take further risk with their stacks, just hoping to kick out the guy who went all-in, so they just checked out their hands, the problem is that they expressed their actions verbally, but damn it- i don't see collusion here, just see the actions until this hands- if those 2 players did play suspiciously then ok, but if this was the only hand- then i do not think it was a good decision

     
  28-Sep-12, 08:52   #8
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
100% correct decision by tournement director Thumbs Up
I wud total flip if this wasnt the case.
100% collusion, dont ever do this at my table you get total burned for sure.

     
  28-Sep-12, 09:04   #9
  0 
lukasb 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Croatia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1735
I find it strange that they thought that 'verbal cooperation' was allowed. It's obvious that by making that kind of agreement they gave themselves an advantage with the only intent of having more chances as a team to knock the other player that was all-in out of the tournament.
Would be something totally different if they just checked down all the way without saying it but like so its collusion at its best no doubt about it.

     
  28-Sep-12, 10:32   #10
  +1 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Totally agree with the decision.

But what if you would do this?


Attached Imagesobama_wink.jpg

     
  28-Sep-12, 13:12   #11
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by marqis:
Totally agree with the decision.

But what if you would do this?



hehehehe Thumbs Up

Maybe I am just really drunk (I am) but that's hilarious

     
  28-Sep-12, 13:27   #12
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
It seems fair enough for me. They only wanted to see if it was possible to eliminate an oponent without risking more of their stack and, instead of doing that quietly, they verbalized it. It's a situation that happens quite often online, but players don't write or opinate about it. Many prejudiced players already came to this forum to talk about situations like that happening to them and that they define as collusion. If there's no talk during the game that shows they were in agreement, it can't be considered collusion, but if there is, so it is. But i don't know if something like this would happen online. It would be almost impossible - if not 100% impossible - for poker rooms to check on the chat to see if the conversation was related with the hands and to analyse if there was some collusion between players.

     
  28-Sep-12, 13:32   #13
  0 
Redvulture61 
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Australia
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 155
I think the penalty is just right not to harsh not to soft props to the TD director.

     
  28-Sep-12, 23:48   #14
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by Fakiry:
It seems fair enough for me. They only wanted to see if it was possible to eliminate an oponent without risking more of their stack and, instead of doing that quietly, they verbalized it. It's a situation that happens quite often online, but players don't write or opinate about it. Many prejudiced players already came to this forum to talk about situations like that happening to them and that they define as collusion. If there's no talk during the game that shows they were in agreement, it can't be considered collusion, but if there is, so it is. But i don't know if something like this would happen online. It would be almost impossible - if not 100% impossible - for poker rooms to check on the chat to see if the conversation was related with the hands and to analyse if there was some collusion between players.


It's remarkably easy for this to be apprehended online, but somebody usually does need to report it. But if there is collusion chat and it's reported, it's incredibly easy to rule in a lot of situations, since there is a complete record of the exact words. In real life, people could try and weasel out of it and say they were talking about something else and deny using certain words, etc.

I get what you're saying about it being a common (un-verbalized) decision, but that's just it - when it is unspoken it's really not uncommon for either a donkey to try and bluff a locked pot, or otherwise somebody wants to bet it for any other reason and making an actual agreement lessens the chances of this (betting) happening, it's definitely cheating and should definitely be punished. These guys got off light.

     
  29-Sep-12, 11:46   #15
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10016
Nothing weird there. The best decision they could have made and a well done to the dealer
which he knew pretty well his job.
If things in online poker have been dealt that way too, things would have been different.

     
  29-Sep-12, 12:17   #16
  0 
Doarulle 
Joined: Sep '12
Location: Romania
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1052
Strange, i can't understand that kind of player poker :| if you want to collusion you must collusion on internet NO LIVE Aww crap! if you want cheats you must know everywhere are cameras... like LAS VEGAS, no clocks but a lot of hidden cameras, i think the must be desqualified because of collusion, anyway i bet the're now on the BLACK LIST Big Smile they want to ruin live poker ? Or what ? Aww crap! that post remember me by a player who pretend don't know english and after he said raise he put only the chips for call... =))

     
  29-Sep-12, 19:44   #17
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
I think that the decision that the dealer took was the right one actually, it's a pretty classic case of collusion...

I also have to agree that live poker played especially on a casino is one of the last places where someone should try to cheat Thumbs Down

     
  30-Sep-12, 02:56   #18
  0 
oneeye 

Joined: Sep '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 24
Slight change of scenario but relevant re- official rules

I was playing an 8 hand cash table with friends - I was on semi tilt due to husband and wife sat side by side and was sure i was right reading under-table collusion signalling which had been instrumental in my chip stack being badly reduced.

After a pre flop re-raise (wife) followed by a further re-raise from (husband) I called with low pkts. I had sensed a look of diss-approval from initial raiser. (this was first indication that someone else had picked up on their possible collusion) initial raiser called for flop.

on flop raiser c-bet W call, H call, I re-raised all in on my flopped set with flush draw board about equal to pot and tilt turned over my set before anyone else responded--- (obviously bad move showing because only likely to be called by bigger set)

however what would be rule regarding this mid game all in show ???

ps We have played since but always make sure we seat said couple away from each other Smile

------------
Posted by jessthehuman:
I completely agree with TD. That is straight-out collusion they're lucky not to be venue-banned for that s**t.

I go ape-s**t online when people say "just check" or "check it down" when one person is allin in a SNG/MTT etc, obviously it's often the correct play (especially in a DoN bubble) - but it doesn't matter, you can't communicate arrangements like that with other players.

I'm surprised fcumred that you actually find this "strange" and were surprised by it. It's straight-out cheating.


Yes me too -majority of online sites dont allow chat on an all in PKR being one exception and this collusion is not un-common there
Sad it should be an online standard default I feel to avoid such play and tedious investigations sometimes resulting in innocent non acknowleging hand involved player accounts and bankrolls being frozen Thumbs Up

Edited by oneeye (Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 03:09 GMT)


     
  30-Sep-12, 04:07   #19
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 2016
I would suggest that you turning over your cards was certainly not against any rules.... I once read something by Doyle Brunson saying that theoretically, you can sit there with your cards face up on the table..... but obviously, you can gain no advantage from it and give all the advantage to your opponents, who can just call if they're infront (or behind and stupid Smile )....

The one time I've been cheated against (and I still maintain that I WAS cheated against, despite no one else agreeing) went like this....

I was playing in a SnG style tourney in a pub near me. We had decided before starting that 1st place would win £35 and 2nd £15 (10 players, £5 buy-in)... I got down to 3 players remaining. One guy who was terrible, but lucky as hell.... and had been pissing me off for ages with his lucky plays time after time.
I picked up QQ on my deal, I raised, SB folded, then numpty pushed all-in from the BB.... I called and he turned over 88.

I turned the first card over, then the second... so far so good - then the 3rd card was an 8....

I was standing at the time, and being pissed off... I quickly threw the next card to the table followed by the river, which landed face down, and stormed off outside for a smoke...

Numpty went on to win, but I was later told that the river I didn't see was actually a Queen.... but, and I quote - "It was my fault for walking away, so it was right he got the chips".

.....I have never played there again Smile

     
  30-Sep-12, 07:19   #20
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
^ Yeah, you got screwed, as if somebody couldn't just come outside and tell you that you won. Also - even if they decided that you had left, then the correct thing to do would have been to assign a stack to your 'spot' and essentially blind you out.

     
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