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Interesting river spot whats your play?   -4   
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Edited by Redvulture61 (04 October 2012 @ 13:01 GMT)


     
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Tbh I'd fold this hand pre flop from the button. The only time I really play 3,4 is when I'm in the blinds, or when I'm on tilt.

     
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I'd have to agree with sadamman on this. I don't play to many 3,4's unless I'm in on the blinds. They can be excellent hands as any can in poker, but to run with the 3,4 is pretty uncommon for me. If I get that gut feeling with suited 3,4 it may happen so hard for me to even provide honest feedback here.

     
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Only 3 reasons to play that hand is ,if your mega-chipleader on a table or want to represent a loose image on the table you just joined or your sure the opponent is on tilt or semi-tilt....a hand to drive him over the edge...if you hit the nuts of course.

     
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I disagree with everyone here. I would actually be raising the BB from the button, then jamming the pot really big after the flop and putting him to the test.

The 800 bet after the flop was really a little too small given the drawing possibilities you were giving him. An 800 chip bet was basically giving him the right odds to call with any piece of the flop. I would have overbet big and made it so that if he wanted to draw on you, it was going to cost him big.

However that said, I'd say it was a well disciplined fold. Most wouldn't have folded there, so fair play for that, I just suspect you could have had a different result if you'd been more aggressive pre and post flop.

     
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Only 3 reasons to play that hand is ,if your mega-chipleader on a table or want to represent a loose image on the table you just joined or your sure the opponent is on tilt or semi-tilt....a hand to drive him over the edge...if you hit the nuts of course.

Cards don't matter in this situation. If you played 3-4 than play like you mean it. Like fcumred said bet big get the whole image of the situation. Or simply give up on the flop. There is no reason to see the river in your situation. Just my 2 cents.

     
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Limping in with 4h,3h on the button is fine. The problem here was you flopped bottom two... kuki307 in the big blind, could have flopped the nuts, had a higher two pair or had top pair low kicker such as 2 or 8, which he hit on the turn or river. From the initial investment of 200, I wouldn't plan on winning a big pot unless someone raised it pre-flop, indicating a pocket pair or A,X, then i'd call an all-in bet.

     
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Not sure why this hand got 3 thumbs down, I think it's actually a genuinely interesting hand that deserves some discussion. So let's do just that.

Pre-flop Villain checks his BB. So here we can LITERALLY put villain on any 2 cards. I'd like to assume however, villain SHOULD be raising any decent hand like broadways, or decent PP to isolate or take it down. I'd be okay assuming he's got absolute trash.

Villain leads on a relatively dry board, aside from the fact it hits 5-6 with the nuts. He then just flats a raise.

On the turn the 2 doesn't really do a hell of a lot to the board, and villain again leads.

On the river, the only possibility on the board is a straight or trips. Either hand is the nuts and villain donk-shoves for what, like 4x the pot. Usually this is either a stone cold bluff, or the absolute nuts. Given his actions on previous streets, I think it's a good assumption that he's got a monster here, and a fold is okay. I mean if you look at the board, there's so many hands that have your 2 pair beat and not many that you beat that he'd take that line with. A5, 56, 87, 82, 83, 72, 73 88, 77, 33 and 22. Really the only thing you're beating is a pair or 32.

I guess it's somewhat reliant on how villain plays (LAG, TAG etc) but I don't see a call here being very good, especially given how little of your stack you have invested, vs the likely chance you'll be knocked out of the tourney.

All that aside, not sure I agree with whoever said limping 43s on the button is an okay play. Sure you've got 100 BB, but why waste them limping hands that have so little value, especially in a pot where you've only really got 1 other person who's showed interest in playing postflop (BB doesn't count of course). Suited/connected hands, especially low hands like 43 only really have value in multi-way pots were pot/implied odds make up for the realtively low show-down value they have.

Edited by retribution (05 October 2012 @ 07:20 GMT)


     
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Posted by retribution:
Not sure why this hand got 3 thumbs down


My guess would be because, thus far, every time he's posted a hand and anybody dares to offer an opinion that disagrees with his opinion, he immediately calls the person offering the opposing opinion a moron, idiot etc.

People have obviously become tired of this behavior and suspecting that it's just a thread posted to enable him to troll further they have just gone straight in with a preemptive thumbs down.

Shame really, it could be an interesting topic for discussion but that's what happens when you behave like a d!ck.

     
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You really needed to be far more agressive pre flop here. Everyone has folded to you and while your hand is small, it does like you think you are weak in calling the BB. Of course he;s going to bet on the flop, He maybe has A7. I would have gone all the way with him. You can propbaby guess the 2 and 8 havent helped him, so your 2 pair was probably best!

     
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The situation also depends how your opponents played before. Are they playing tight or loose, ...

I dare to raise preflop suited connected cards in late position (raisen 3 BB) hoping the others would fold.
If they call I just have a reasonable hand to win with str or flush chances.

If you get a big reraise preflop you have to fold.

     
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This is a 1,10 $ donkament with a field of around 5 000 players. Maybe more. Am I right?
You give your opponents too much credit discussing their line of play in terms like "flop overbet", "flop cold call" and "valueshove". They don't know these terms and they don't act this way.
So, OK, you limped and you hit two pairs. Instashove after the flop on this board. Most of the times you will be ahead. If you win, you double up and have good prospects for the tourney. If you loose, just move on to the next donkament.
If you want my opinion on the river play specifically. It is call for me, considering the limits.
This is IMHO, of course.

     
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[QUOTE]Posted by retribution:
Not sure why this hand got 3 thumbs down, I think it's actually a genuinely interesting hand that deserves some discussion. So let's do just that.

Its just a few immature trolls mate who actually have such pathetic lives they actually care about me enough to read my threads, dislike them, let what i do here effect their daily lives, and assume that 3 people is Representative of the 10k people who post on here. These are the types of players online we like to call button clickers. They just like to click buttons without any thought of what their doing or why their doing it.

Anyway thanks for all the feedback retribution i folded for basically the exact same reasons that you would. Its just not profitable here to call i think as for one he is rarely bluffing, and two if he is bluffing he is just not taking this sort of line for value with worse often enough for it to be a call. Finally i just have to much behind me to risk my tourney live on a hand where i am likely dominated.

Edited by Redvulture61 (05 October 2012 @ 18:00 GMT)


     
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If you must know, I was the first one to thumb down the OP. I done this for a laugh because your a tit. Then other people obviously find it funny to thumb you down also.

Yeah retribution said a load of bla-bla-bla, whats the point in calling 3,4 in the first place if your not prepared to go all in when you flop two pair. What were you expecting, to flop a straight, a flush, or a full house? Not very likely. Are those the only hands you'd call the all in on? If they're the only times you'd ever really call it, what was the point in wasting so many chips when you could fold pre flop.

     
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Posted by sadamman:
If you must know, I was the first one to thumb down the OP. I done this for a laugh because your a tit. Then other people obviously find it funny to thumb you down also.

Yeah retribution said a load of bla-bla-bla, whats the point in calling 3,4 in the first place if your not prepared to go all in when you flop two pair. What were you expecting, to flop a straight, a flush, or a full house? Not very likely. Are those the only hands you'd call the all in on? If they're the only times you'd ever really call it, what was the point in wasting so many chips when you could fold pre flop.


Spot on.. if you are going to play hands then play them aggressively. By just limping you are relying on hitting the big flop, which in this case happened, but the betting was still far too small.

I would have hit the flop far bigger, and put him under real pressure. An 800 chip bet was way too small given the BB was given a free shot at the blinds.

Either go for the pot or fold. Limping with hands like 3-4 is a recipe for disaster.

     
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Posted by fcumred:
Posted by sadamman:
If you must know, I was the first one to thumb down the OP. I done this for a laugh because your a tit. Then other people obviously find it funny to thumb you down also.

Yeah retribution said a load of bla-bla-bla, whats the point in calling 3,4 in the first place if your not prepared to go all in when you flop two pair. What were you expecting, to flop a straight, a flush, or a full house? Not very likely. Are those the only hands you'd call the all in on? If they're the only times you'd ever really call it, what was the point in wasting so many chips when you could fold pre flop.


Spot on.. if you are going to play hands then play them aggressively. By just limping you are relying on hitting the big flop, which in this case happened, but the betting was still far too small.

I would have hit the flop far bigger, and put him under real pressure. An 800 chip bet was way too small given the BB was given a free shot at the blinds.

Either go for the pot or fold. Limping with hands like 3-4 is a recipe for disaster.


For you its a recipe for disaster yes but for me limping in with hands in position is profitable because these hands have what we call in poker ""implied odds"" which can sometimes make big enough hands to stack people. For you its a recipe for disaster because folding top pair top kicker or better is an impossibility. And since i have massive postflop edge over you its ok. I pride myself to be able to get value from when i make big hands, bluff my opponents when the opportunity arises, and make the discipline folds when need be like on this instance.

And if you read the hand carefully you would see i was on the one who was bet into not him. There you go again posting on my threads without reading them which is indicative of a troll.Also, we can also assume your the type of player who bluffs because they think they can get their opponents to fold a better hand not because they have represented this hand. Your the type of player who when value betting bets because he thinks he has the best hand taking no consideration what your opponment range and your perceived range and sizing your bets accordingly. You get my grip because by the looks of it it described you nicely by what you say. Any idiot can play preflop well as it is pretty much solved per say.

However, postflop play requires analytically minded thinking taking into account many factors such as board texture, hand strength, meta game history, your opponents range, your perceived range, maximizing value, thin value betting, bluffing, bluff inducing, player types, betting patterns, gameflow factors, disciplined folds all in a vacuum. Anyway i am done posting here as the trolls will invetiable be back because they care about me a lot which is sad to say but true. Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

Edited by Redvulture61 (06 October 2012 @ 00:15 GMT)


     
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Posted by Redvulture61:
We can also assume your the type of player who bluffs because they think they can get their opponents to fold a better hand not because they have represented this hand.
Well if the point of bluffing ISN'T to get a player off a better hand, I'm not so sure what your definition of bluffing is. Sure there's a right way and a wrong way to bluff, but the whole point of a bluff stays the same no matter how you look at it.


Point is, Your the type of player who when value betting bets because he thinks he has the best hand taking no consideration what your opponment range and your perceived range and sizing your bets accordingly. You get my grip because by the looks of it it described you nicely by what you say. Any idiot can play preflop well as it is pretty much solved per say.

It's the micros, 99.999% of the people you're up against have absolutely no clue what you're "representing". Players at the micros don't care that you've check/called to the river on a draw heavy board, nor do they care when you suddenly re-raise them after the draw gets there. They're still calling, because all they see is their own cards and what hand they have. You see evidence of this all the time, fish calling down 3 streets with nothing but bottom pair. This is why it's so easy to beat the micros, because you can literally wait for a hand and milk it for maximum value almost every time.


However, postflop play requires analytically minded thinking taking into account many factors such as board texture, hand strength, meta game history, your opponents range, your perceived range, maximizing value, thin value betting, bluffing, bluff inducing, player types, betting patterns, gameflow factors, disciplined folds all in a vacuum. Anyway i am done posting here as the trolls will invetiable be back because they care about me a lot which is sad to say but true. Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile


Sure, these are all important aspects to learn and apply, if you're playing against people who can think beyond level 1. Again, at the micros fish don't even have a grasp of the basic concepts, such as pot and draw odds, nevermind the advanced concepts such as hand ranges. Micro players tend to play 1 of 2 ways. Either by reaction - Ie: they play a hand according to it's strength - Or by pure aggression, ie: trying to bully the table without considering board textures etc. The best favor a player can do, is not to out-level themselves, that is to not over-complicate something based on what you EXPECT them to do, because frankly as I said players only think as far as the 2 cards in their hand. Based on this, you can end up misplaying a hand just because you based your play on how they "should" play instead of how they ARE playing it.

     
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[/QUOTE] Well if the point of bluffing ISN'T to get a player off a better hand, I'm not so sure what your definition of bluffing is. Sure there's a right way and a wrong way to bluff, but the whole point of a bluff stays the same no matter how you look at it.

Although the premise that the idea of a bluff is to make your opponent fold a better hand, a bluff will be more successful when you have consistently represented that range in the hand. When a bluff works your opponent believes the range of hands you have represented is better than his range of hands and that's what entices him to fold a better hand. If a Fish like sandman bluffs, it is because he knows or he suspects he is beat and not because he has consistently represented a strong holding on earlier streets.


[/QUOTE]
It's the micros, 99.999% of the people you're up against have absolutely no clue what you're "representing". Players at the micros don't care that you've check/called to the river on a draw heavy board, nor do they care when you suddenly re-raise them after the draw gets there. They're still calling, because all they see is their own cards and what hand they have. You see evidence of this all the time, fish calling down 3 streets with nothing but bottom pair. This is why it's so easy to beat the micros, because you can literally wait for a hand and milk it for maximum value almost every time.

When a fish like Sandman bets for value, it is because his hand is strong relative to the board and to his opponent’s range of hands rather than relative to the range he has himself represented. You will find most player think on level 2 most of the time at varying degrees of sophistication from very to not very.


Sure, these are all important aspects to learn and apply, if you're playing against people who can think beyond level 1. Again, at the micros fish don't even have a grasp of the basic concepts, such as pot and draw odds, nevermind the advanced concepts such as hand ranges. Micro players tend to play 1 of 2 ways. Either by reaction - Ie: they play a hand according to it's strength - Or by pure aggression, ie: trying to bully the table without considering board textures etc. The best favor a player can do, is not to out-level themselves, that is to not over-complicate something based on what you EXPECT them to do, because frankly as I said players only think as far as the 2 cards in their hand. Based on this, you can end up misplaying a hand just because you based your play on how they "should" play instead of how they ARE playing it. [/QUOTE]

I agree with that but i think most players think on level 2 but at the micros they don't do it well.

     
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Posted by Redvulture61:
For you its a recipe for disaster yes but for me limping in with hands in position is profitable because these hands have what we call in poker ""implied odds"" which can sometimes make big enough hands to stack people. For you its a recipe for disaster because folding top pair top kicker or better is an impossibility. And since i have massive postflop edge over you its ok. I pride myself to be able to get value from when i make big hands, bluff my opponents when the opportunity arises, and make the discipline folds when need be like on this instance.

And if you read the hand carefully you would see i was on the one who was bet into not him. There you go again posting on my threads without reading them which is indicative of a troll.Also, we can also assume your the type of player who bluffs because they think they can get their opponents to fold a better hand not because they have represented this hand. Your the type of player who when value betting bets because he thinks he has the best hand taking no consideration what your opponment range and your perceived range and sizing your bets accordingly. You get my grip because by the looks of it it described you nicely by what you say. Any idiot can play preflop well as it is pretty much solved per say.

However, postflop play requires analytically minded thinking taking into account many factors such as board texture, hand strength, meta game history, your opponents range, your perceived range, maximizing value, thin value betting, bluffing, bluff inducing, player types, betting patterns, gameflow factors, disciplined folds all in a vacuum. Anyway i am done posting here as the trolls will invetiable be back because they care about me a lot which is sad to say but true. Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile


Speculation, you don't know me, you only know me by a few posts in this forum. Maybe you've googled me and sharkscoped me but I have done the same with you.
Blink

     
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Why did you play 34 ? serriously ? i don't like this move, okay if you're on BB or SB, but that position ? No, never... or ok if you speculate a flop like A25 or 256... or why not ? 333 Big Smile don't do it again, just don't

     
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