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  1-Nov-12, 02:52   #1
KK Smallstack utg play? 0 
initiator 
Joined: Nov '08
Location: Germany
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 134
How should one play KK in position: UTG in a tournament of 7000 players , 200 players left and you have 13,5 BB´s in 180 position. My stack: $38 000 BB.: $2800?
You have the image as a tight player.
3 Equal big stacks others 120k-200k
Buyin: $4,40 Pokerstars
Allin or how much raise.
And why?
Thank-you and hope for many tips
Thank-you

Edited by initiator (Thursday, November 01, 2012 @ 02:57 GMT)


     
  1-Nov-12, 02:58   #2
  0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
all in for me buddy. unless you've hardly played a hand before and/or there is a player you know will 3bet a min raise alot of the time. then i would go ahead and min raise but most of the time its an all in for sure.


     
  1-Nov-12, 03:06   #3
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Open-shove here 100% of the time.

     
  1-Nov-12, 03:46   #4
  0 
takingdrugs 

Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 744
shove it


------------
shove it

     
  1-Nov-12, 04:29   #5
  0 
StarinaNovak 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Serbia
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 121
With only 200 players left from 7000 you are probably already in prizes.If you play all in probably all players will fold and only thing you take from this hand would be one big and one smal blind with antes and in next 2 hands if you get bad hands you will give that back.
Because of this and fact you are already in money i would try to use this hand as much as i can.I would bet 5-6 BB and no matter what shows on flop go all in

     
  1-Nov-12, 04:45   #6
  0 
WinAllDay 
Joined: Sep '11
Location: Canada
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 173
raise all but 1 chip to induce.

no really, all in. i would be doing this up to 17or 18BB most likely, depending on average stack but it seems like ur pretty down there.

     
  1-Nov-12, 05:29   #7
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by WinAllDay:
raise all but 1 chip to induce.

no really, all in. i would be doing this up to 17or 18BB most likely, depending on average stack but it seems like ur pretty down there.


Yeah this question would be more interesting with 17-30bb. As that's when it starts getting a bit much to open-shove, but other raises become awkward, especially on A high flops.

But for ~13bb it's just a super standard shove - as it should be probably with 99+ AJs+ and AQo+ (if you include a large enough shoving range, you'll get called often enough). FWIW if you start shoving hands like AKos UTG with 10-15bb but min-raising a 3X raising AA and KK - above micro stakes people WILL notice this and you'll just screw up your equity.

------------
Posted by WinAllDay:
raise all but 1 chip to induce.


always a classic move. In fact - if you feel like been a complete twat, join a freeroll and just shove a couple hands and see if you can double/triple up. If you do, wait until another big stack who has you covered raises and then do this trick - the old allin except 1 chip and then when they put you in, time-bank fold your last chip. It will seriously tilt the rest of the table.

------------
be sure to make up some reason as to why you folded. like "they had to have AA in that spot" - extra points if you open-fold KK.

     
  1-Nov-12, 06:22   #8
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
Posted by jessthehuman:
if you feel like been a complete twat, join a free roll and just shove a couple hands and see if you can double/triple up. If you do, wait until another big stack who has you covered raises and then do this trick - the old allin except 1 chip and then when they put you in, time-bank fold your last chip. It will seriously tilt the rest of the table.

------------
be sure to make up some reason as to why you folded. like "they had to have AA in that spot" - extra points if you open-fold KK.


That made me laugh so hard I'm going to play free rolls all day just for a chance to do it. If I manage to do it with KK I'll take a screenshot and post it.

     
  1-Nov-12, 06:51   #9
  0 
initiator 
Joined: Nov '08
Location: Germany
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 134
Thanx alot for the Quick response.
This really happened today and I raised it 3,5 BB. Ready to push allin on the flop.
I played tight all night and was affraid that my an allin would scare the Players away.
I figured I need a caller, and that this would probably be my last premium hand so take a small risk and play it a bit slow with 3,5 BB raise and get paid.
My girlfriend was totally against that after what happened.
An equally big stack called my raise with 77 and hit his set on the flop. ( allin both )
She insists that allin is the only move to stay safe, but I disagree, because I am pretty safe with the hand and dont only want the Blinds and antes with such a strong hand.

     
  1-Nov-12, 07:03   #10
  0 
xdomagojx 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Croatia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 399
All in. All in is actually weak move. Raising is strong move. You ll get caller easier by going all in they ll assume you have wide range with that much BBs. Your table image doesn't matter much when you don't have many chips. If you by any chance only pick up blinds you still have 9 hands to pick from.
Also by only raising you are inviting people with chips to call your raise with all kind of crap and someone will break your kings that way.
So always shove to isolate someone and double up. Cheers.

     
  1-Nov-12, 08:33   #11
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by xdomagojx:
All in. All in is actually weak move. Raising is strong move. You ll get caller easier by going all in they ll assume you have wide range with that much BBs. Your table image doesn't matter much when you don't have many chips. If you by any chance only pick up blinds you still have 9 hands to pick from.
Also by only raising you are inviting people with chips to call your raise with all kind of crap and someone will break your kings that way.
So always shove to isolate someone and double up. Cheers.


I'd like to know how you think all-in with >13bb is a "weak move". If you open raise even 2.5x, you're leaving behind 10.5BB AND enticing people to make a very small call to see a pot that likely offers good odds. When you're looking at pots with big blinds AND antes, open-raising is even weaker because of the reduced fold equit just from the pot being so big. By raising instead of shoving, you're creating poor odds against yourself. A good example is this:

You're BTN, it folds to you and you raise 2.5x. With antes, there's already 1.5BB for blinds + roughly another 3 from antes. This means you're making the BB call only 2.5BB more for a pot that's already at 5 which gives them 2:1 to call. The SB gets Around 2-2.5 to call, so they're literally correct to call, assuming they aren't >20BB themselves.

Point is, when you're running under 17BB, you really have to consider playing hands you're willing to get stacks in with, because any raise pretty much commits you to the pot, and you're not taking advantage of the fold equity you have. Punish weak players who want to call down lighter by making them pay a lot with a shove, instead of giving them the option to enter a big pot cheap and then shutting down if they miss the flop.

     
  1-Nov-12, 08:35   #12
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
I agree with the open shove KK. I have tried to slow play monsters in early position when playing shortstacked - trying to maximize the return, but normally get kicked in the head. Big Blind will check with 7-2 offsuit and then the flop comes down with two pair or some crap like that. Shove, shove, shove. Smile

     
  1-Nov-12, 12:23   #13
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
Considering the stage of the tournament and your stack i also have to agree that the best move is to open shove.

KK is a premium hand especially in this stage of the tournament, many will call your shove with very weak hands.

     
  1-Nov-12, 13:05   #14
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1477
Posted by zeroster:
Posted by jessthehuman:
if you feel like been a complete twat, join a free roll and just shove a couple hands and see if you can double/triple up. If you do, wait until another big stack who has you covered raises and then do this trick - the old allin except 1 chip and then when they put you in, time-bank fold your last chip. It will seriously tilt the rest of the table.

------------
be sure to make up some reason as to why you folded. like "they had to have AA in that spot" - extra points if you open-fold KK.


That made me laugh so hard I'm going to play free rolls all day just for a chance to do it. If I manage to do it with KK I'll take a screenshot and post it.


I will wait !!! Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Don't lie . You also make me laugh so much too Big Smile Big Smile I can imagine how you wasting your time to wait that moment. Don't forget send comment your opponent, too.
I am glad some people start talk poker humor here Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  1-Nov-12, 13:46   #15
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
open shove KK...there is no other way your going to fold this hand in this situation so go all in....if you raise and the flop has an ace...you will be in a hard situation.....

     
  1-Nov-12, 13:49   #16
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
Posted by Serpang:


I will wait !!! Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Don't lie . You also make me laugh so much too Big Smile Big Smile I can imagine how you wasting your time to wait that moment. Don't forget send comment your opponent, too.
I am glad some people start talk poker humor here Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile


No success so far so I'm giving up for the day. I'll try again tomorrow.

At least having this project to complete is preserving my rapidly diminishing bankroll.

     
  1-Nov-12, 19:34   #17
  0 
initiator 
Joined: Nov '08
Location: Germany
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 134
Posted by zeroster:
Posted by Serpang:


I will wait !!! Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Don't lie . You also make me laugh so much too Big Smile Big Smile I can imagine how you wasting your time to wait that moment. Don't forget send comment your opponent, too.
I am glad some people start talk poker humor here Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile


No success so far so I'm giving up for the day. I'll try again tomorrow.

At least having this project to complete is preserving my rapidly diminishing bankroll.

Ok.
you guys have got me also now.
I´m watching a film but will also play a few Free rolls at the same time and try get KK and fold
LOL

     
  1-Nov-12, 21:11   #18
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
I'm allin because I'm not going to give someone the chance withan A,6 to donk me. If the players wants to gamble the rag A then I'll lose by being allin and he'd better hit or I'm taking the chips. I've just been burnt to many times trying to slow play and someone with an A keeps beeting until the river. This is the chance I would take after the mistakes from the past.

     
  1-Nov-12, 22:40   #19
  0 
fcumred 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1238
I would generally shove, however, if I know someone will give me action then I'll take the gamble and maybe raise 3xBB hoping to get someone involved in the pot. It all depends really on what kind of players I've got at the table.

Usually when you are that short, a bigstack will call you with any ace and you are hoping to duck the Aces left in the pack. At least if you raise and the ace does hit you can get away from it.

90% of the time I would shove, but if I feel I can get more from it by playing the hand pre and post flop then I will.

     
  2-Nov-12, 00:34   #20
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by zeroster:

If I manage to do it with KK I'll take a screenshot and post it.



hehehe please do ! Thumbs Up

     
  2-Nov-12, 07:42   #21
  0 
magatt966 

Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 3713
Posted by jessthehuman:
Open-shove here 100% of the time.



Disagree with you his time: I'd increase that percentage to 200% or even something more Blink

Edited by magatt966 (Friday, November 02, 2012 @ 07:49 GMT)


     
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