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  15-Nov-12, 15:57   #1
bluff 0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1343
Well I have a question :

what size of bet do you place when you wanne bluff your opponent out

example

you have A Spade J Spade

raised 4 BB and got called by 1 player

on the flop

7 Diamond 10 Diamond 5 Heart

your opponent makes a small raise (2BB) and you call

the turn is a 4 Diamond

your opponent checks and you wanne raise to let him believe you have a flush

what bet would you place ? or first a small raise and a higher one after the river?

     
  15-Nov-12, 16:17   #2
  0 
RoninHarper 

Joined: Nov '12
Location: Canada
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 4440
Well i would first like to state that you really have not given us enough info. about this situation.
I mean we do not now table positioning or stake sizes. do you have a table image of being tight or have you been caught trying to bluff several times already?
I personally do not like to bluff very oftain. but going only on the very limited information you gave us,
I think 70 - 90% of the pot is a good raise.

     
  15-Nov-12, 16:32   #3
  0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1343
Well I must say it s just an example I put on there.

I actually seldom make a bluff so I think I rahwer have a tight image at the table


     
  15-Nov-12, 16:48   #4
  0 
AlexSimion 
Joined: Mar '12
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 640
I think it depends very much on the player , a good player , will probably fold even a small bet on the turn , if his odds of winning the pot aren't good , another important fact is the stack size of the other player , like Ronin said , extra info is needed ,and a big number of small details.

     
  15-Nov-12, 18:04   #5
  0 
xdomagojx 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Croatia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 399
Depends on the player rly and blinds.
If blinds are small then you need to raise rly big (possible all-in).
If the blinds are big and its late stage of tournament then you need to place "value bets" that will trow your opponent of a hand (it's more suspicios and you rly don't want to risk busting out in late stage).

Here's one example of early stage bluff where my opponent folds trip aces:

PokerStars Hand #89248633656: Tournament #641137320, $0.50+$0.05 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (20/40) - 2012/11/14 23:05:50 CET [2012/11/14 17:05:50 ET]
Table '641137320 288' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: ViorelB89 (3315 in chips)
Seat 2: roberto_elx (3145 in chips)
Seat 3: Mandras71 (2840 in chips)
Seat 4: PetoBl (3000 in chips)
Seat 5: Lostagain80 (12285 in chips)
Seat 6: lettucespray (2925 in chips)
Seat 7: Boleslav69 (3235 in chips)
Seat 8: andrey131113 (3445 in chips)
andrey131113: posts small blind 20
ViorelB89: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Boleslav69 [8d 8s]
roberto_elx: folds
Mandras71: folds
PetoBl: folds
Lostagain80: folds
lettucespray: folds
Boleslav69: raises 80 to 120
andrey131113: calls 100
ViorelB89: folds
*** FLOP *** [3d Ah Tc]
andrey131113: checks
Boleslav69: bets 200
andrey131113: raises 200 to 400
Boleslav69: calls 200
*** TURN *** [3d Ah Tc] King of hearts
andrey131113: bets 320
Boleslav69: calls 320
*** RIVER *** [3d Ah Tc Kh] Jack of spades
andrey131113: checks
Boleslav69: bets 2395 and is all-in
andrey131113: folds
Uncalled bet (2395) returned to Boleslav69
Boleslav69 collected 1720 from pot
Boleslav69: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1720 | Rake 0
Board [3d Ah Tc Kh Js]
Seat 1: ViorelB89 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: roberto_elx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Mandras71 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: PetoBl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Lostagain80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: lettucespray folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Boleslav69 (button) collected (1720)
Seat 8: andrey131113 (small blind) folded on the River

But remember, it's very important to think how you went into a hand, so prepare yourself in advance when you decide to play speculative hands. If you limped then you ll bluff lower board. If you went strong into the pot then you seek high board and stuff like that. There are lot of factors but most important one is always to put your opponent on a hand. So you don't bluff into nuts.
Bluffs are usefull only when your opponent is strong so you win big pot. Never bluff small pots it will destroy your image and you ll be soon out and if you manage to do it you gain nothing and risked a lot.

Cheers Blink

------------
p.s. example you posted is not for bluff on turn but on flop. You raised preflop with that hand representing strong hand. On that board he bets small cause he is the one who wants to draw (pot control). If you want to bluff you had to reraise right there on the flop (representing set or an overpair). Calling here is the worst option. Either fold or reraise-fold. If i saw you raise preflop and calling on that board i would mark you green as donk. Big Smile

Edited by xdomagojx (Thursday, November 15, 2012 @ 18:18 GMT)


     
  15-Nov-12, 19:58   #6
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
I'm really just now coming out of a shell to where I'll bluff, but it's all in the momenet and a feel in which you've provided to the players about yourself and one that you've learned about them. If that makes sense.
I recently been playing to where I raise more often (when I have a good hand) preflop and have learned that I should have been doing this since the start. No, I don't win every hand by doing this, but I win more hands then when I would just call.
I think there's some simularities when it comes to knowing when to bluff. You've been on the table long enough to get a feel as to how your opponenets play and have left an impression to those who pay attention, as to how you play. Based on this, position and reaction time (personal opinion) all is part of a good bluff, but you'll never win them all and that's what needs to be acknowledged. Please realize my comments are based on only 2 years of playing and lots of BRM advice.

     
  15-Nov-12, 22:27   #7
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4852
Yep...we all definately need more info before we make any judgment on this one...mainly what do you know about your opponent and what do they know about you?....How have you been both calling and raising and what will look normal or out of place. Loads of considerations to go through!

     
  15-Nov-12, 22:36   #8
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
It's almost totally player dependent. In my Tuesday night home game there's a player I can scare the hell out of with a min raise. On the other hand there's another that I'd need to bet nearly full pot to bluff.

     
  15-Nov-12, 23:57   #9
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Just a small tip regarding bluffs: Unlike this hand, you should probably focus your bluffs more on hands where you have some unlikely potential: Back-door draws, gut-shots, set-mining etc- that way you can bluff your way to the river and if you hit your miracle hand - they'll never put you on it.

In this particular hand, about the only equity you have is fold equity - you're left with no show down value - and if the river bricks for you or makes the board any wetter (assuming your turn bet is called) - then you're left with a very difficult decision, as you've now invested a lot into the pot and the only way to win it is a huge river bluff. So ultimately throughout the hand you're risking a lot on a pure bluff.. Whereas if you bluff when you have a little equity in the pot too, it can sometimes work out for you a little better in those river spots.

     
  16-Nov-12, 19:08   #10
  0 
xdomagojx 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Croatia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 399
Here is an example similar like yours. Guy wanted to do same sh1t as you and made all the mistakes i mentioned before.
Small pot no reason to bluff and he even overbets it. I spotted him and bluffed his ass back and showed him how stupid his move was.

PokerStars Hand #89339638013: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2012/11/16 19:56:38 CET [2012/11/16 13:56:38 ET]
Table 'Benkoela' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: shot1989 ($2.27 in chips)
Seat 2: Singcaster ($0.70 in chips)
Seat 3: zelder6013 ($5.33 in chips)
Seat 4: Boleslav69 ($8.95 in chips)
Seat 5: CaZper73 ($0.77 in chips)
Seat 6: raulaveritei ($2.95 in chips)
Seat 7: olioli264 ($3.77 in chips)
Seat 8: ringurin ($5 in chips)
Seat 9: COolesauu ($2.08 in chips)
shot1989: posts small blind $0.01
Singcaster: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Boleslav69 [7c Js]
zelder6013: raises $0.02 to $0.04
Boleslav69: calls $0.04
CaZper73: folds
raulaveritei: folds
olioli264 has timed out while being disconnected
olioli264: folds
ringurin: folds
olioli264 is disconnected
COolesauu: folds
shot1989: folds
Singcaster: folds
*** FLOP *** [9s 2s 4d]
zelder6013: checks
Boleslav69: checks
*** TURN *** [9s 2s 4d] 8 of spades
zelder6013: bets $0.14
Boleslav69: calls $0.14
*** RIVER *** [9s 2s 4d 8s] 6 of diamonds
zelder6013: checks
Boleslav69: bets $0.28
zelder6013: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.28) returned to Boleslav69
Boleslav69 collected $0.38 from pot
Boleslav69: shows [7c Js] (high card Jack)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.39 | Rake $0.01
Board [9s 2s 4d 8s 6d]
Seat 1: shot1989 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Singcaster (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: zelder6013 folded on the River
Seat 4: Boleslav69 collected ($0.38)
Seat 5: CaZper73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: raulaveritei folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: olioli264 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: ringurin folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: COolesauu (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Here s an example from tournament where guy went from 33k to under 15k. Also made almost all mistakes he could. Multiway pot, small pot, turn bluff.
When you overdo it ppl start callling you with all kinds of sh1t and you ll be soon out like this guy.

Table '644598785 9' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: Boleslav69 (17373 in chips)
Seat 4: MATVSALEM (5635 in chips)
Seat 5: Franbostero2 (27335 in chips)
Seat 6: DarthHouse (2715 in chips)
Seat 8: Xador (18667 in chips)
Boleslav69: posts the ante 50
MATVSALEM: posts the ante 50
Franbostero2: posts the ante 50
DarthHouse: posts the ante 50
Xador: posts the ante 50
Boleslav69: posts small blind 200
MATVSALEM: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Boleslav69 [4h 3c]
Franbostero2: calls 400
DarthHouse: calls 400
Xador: calls 400
Boleslav69: calls 200
MATVSALEM: checks
*** FLOP *** [9h Kh 8d]
Boleslav69: checks
MATVSALEM: checks
Franbostero2: checks
DarthHouse: checks
Xador: checks
*** TURN *** [9h Kh 8d] 4 of clubs
Boleslav69: checks
MATVSALEM: checks
Franbostero2: checks
DarthHouse: checks
Xador: bets 400
Boleslav69: calls 400
MATVSALEM: folds
Franbostero2: folds
DarthHouse: folds
*** RIVER *** [9h Kh 8d 4c] King of diamonds
Boleslav69: checks
Xador: bets 1500
Boleslav69: calls 1500
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Xador: shows [Ts Ac] (a pair of Kings)
Boleslav69: shows [4h 3c] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
Boleslav69 collected 6050 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6050 | Rake 0
Board [9h Kh 8d 4c Kd]
Seat 2: Boleslav69 (small blind) showed [4h 3c] and won (6050) with two pair, Kings and Fours
Seat 4: MATVSALEM (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: Franbostero2 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: DarthHouse folded on the Turn
Seat 8: Xador (button) showed [Ts Ac] and lost with a pair of Kings

And they start to calling you with all kinds of sh1t and bluffing you as well like this (see how it starts on flop not on turn...)

PokerStars Hand #89339988605: Tournament #644598785, $0.23+$0.02 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2012/11/16 20:04:48 CET [2012/11/16 14:04:48 ET]
Table '644598785 9' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: doc.boban19 (9378 in chips)
Seat 2: Boleslav69 (22173 in chips)
Seat 3: xAMEPuKOCx (19924 in chips)
Seat 4: MATVSALEM (4535 in chips)
Seat 5: Franbostero2 (21191 in chips)
Seat 7: Artur Gaziev (23403 in chips)
Seat 8: Xador (25676 in chips)
Seat 9: garri1870 (8720 in chips)
doc.boban19: posts the ante 50
Boleslav69: posts the ante 50
xAMEPuKOCx: posts the ante 50
MATVSALEM: posts the ante 50
Franbostero2: posts the ante 50
Artur Gaziev: posts the ante 50
Xador: posts the ante 50
garri1870: posts the ante 50
xAMEPuKOCx: posts small blind 300
MATVSALEM: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Boleslav69 [Js Qs]
Franbostero2: folds
Artur Gaziev: folds
Xador: raises 1200 to 1800
garri1870: folds
doc.boban19: folds
Boleslav69: calls 1800
xAMEPuKOCx: folds
MATVSALEM: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ah 2c 3s]
Xador: checks
Boleslav69: bets 2400
Xador: folds
Uncalled bet (2400) returned to Boleslav69
Boleslav69 collected 4900 from pot
Boleslav69: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4900 | Rake 0
Board [Ah 2c 3s]
Seat 1: doc.boban19 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Boleslav69 (button) collected (4900)
Seat 3: xAMEPuKOCx (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: MATVSALEM (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Franbostero2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Artur Gaziev folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Xador folded on the Flop
Seat 9: garri1870 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Posted this so i can brag how awesome i am even tho i play micros Big Smile
But i hope you'll learn from this and not do this type of crap. Cheers.

     
  16-Nov-12, 20:45   #11
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
Posted by thefly131:
Well I have a question :

what size of bet do you place when you wanne bluff your opponent out

example

you have A Spade J Spade

raised 4 BB and got called by 1 player

on the flop

7 Diamond 10 Diamond 5 Heart

your opponent makes a small raise (2BB) and you call

the turn is a 4 Diamond

your opponent checks and you wanne raise to let him believe you have a flush

what bet would you place ? or first a small raise and a higher one after the river?
Frankly i do not like the fact that you call the min bet that your opponent did...
I would have raised that bet or fold, is really that simple, calling is definately the worst option there.

     
  17-Nov-12, 00:18   #12
  0 
fcumred 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1238
That hand is not a hand you should be aiming a bluff at.

Its highly likely he has in fact hit a flush and is slowplaying deliberately hoping that you will take a stab at the pot.

If I am going for a bluff I do it where I still have a chance to hit the winning hand and yet portray a hand far bigger than the one I've got.

I actually prefer to be playing first and out of position then I take a stab at the pot. If they call then I can check fold the next street or if I feel they are calling light put in a huge bet they are not able to call.

An absolute classic is where I have a small pair and they raise pre flop. When the ace falls on the flop I will check raise everytime hoping they have a middle pair or a hand like JJ or 10 10. A hand which they are completely unable to call with owing to the ace showing.

If there is a flush showing I will very rarely try and represent it because its too risky that I am drawing completely dead and end up making a fool of myself.

     
  17-Nov-12, 01:17   #13
  0 
rbdflyboy 

Joined: Apr '11
Location: Canada
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1222
Posted by thefly131:
Well I have a question :

what size of bet do you place when you wanne bluff your opponent out

example

you have A Spade J Spade

raised 4 BB and got called by 1 player

on the flop

7 Diamond 10 Diamond 5 Heart

your opponent makes a small raise (2BB) and you call

the turn is a 4 Diamond

your opponent checks and you wanne raise to let him believe you have a flush

what bet would you place ? or first a small raise and a higher one after the river?



you could or should cbet the flop here as a semi-bluff to protect your hand against a draw and to see where your at. (may not be the best hand to do this with) given the texture of the board.
The check on the turn, shows weakness, could be opponent is bluff inducing if he hit his draw. You don't have enough info at this point so a check behind imo would be the better play to see where your at on the river. He's given you a free card. How he leads out should give the info you need.
This is a tough spot...would have mucked this one on the flop. fcumred has it right.

     
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