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  17-Nov-12, 21:54   #1
Really confused about how this is a -ev call. 0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Okay, so this hand is from a 9man hyper turbo step 1 on Ft. Payout structure is somewhat wierd, looking like this:

Buyin: Step 1 ticket $3.30

6: .60 cents cash
3-5th: Step 1 ticket (Try again)
1-2: Step 2 ticket $8.70

So as you can see, there's essentially 3 bubbles which is somewhat weird for a 9man. Anyways here's the hand that confuses me: Both villains are typical terrible players, shoving and calling far too wide.

Full Tilt Poker Game Step 1 (Super Turbo) (244256728), Table 1 - 40/80 - No Limit
Seat 4: SATORI1985 (820)
Seat 5: Hero (410)
Seat 7: 5TheBest5 (1,170)
Seat 9: chopsy (300)
SATORI1985 posts the small blind of 40
hero posts the big blind of 80
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [6s 6h]
5TheBest5 folds
chopsy raises to 300, and is all in
SATORI1985 raises to 820, and is all in
hero calls 330, and is all in
SATORI1985 shows [3c Kd]
hero shows [6s 6h]
chopsy shows [Ks Ad]

Total pot 1,120 Main pot 900. Side pot 220. | Rake 0

Board: [7h 2s Qh 9c 9s]

Seat 4: SATORI1985 (small blind) showed [3c Kd] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: hero (big blind) showed [6s 6h] and won (1,120) with two pair, Nines and Sixes
Seat 7: 5TheBest5 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: chopsy showed [Ks Ad] and lost with a pair of Nines

I don't get how this isn't a fist-pump call? I guess second villains call makes the range we're beating somewhat narrower, but if we win we bust 1 and the other becomes the shorty and we're in a great spot to take down 1st(which is top 2 spots), and even if we lose we're still breakeven on our ticket since we're past the re-try bubble.

HEM2 seems to tell me it's a -ev call however, but since we're about to hit SB AND we've only effectively got 3.5bb left, I just don't understand how this could be a bad call, especially since the 2 villains shove/call ranges will tend to conterfeit each other (IE: they both show up with the same face cards in their hands a lot which actually lowers the power their over-cards have against me).

Edited by retribution (Saturday, November 17, 2012 @ 21:56 GMT)


     
  18-Nov-12, 00:43   #2
  -1 
godlike666 

Joined: Feb '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 312
[QUOTE]Posted by retribution:
Okay, so this hand is from a 9man hyper turbo step 1 on Ft.

Buyin: Step 1 ticket $3.30


Both villains are typical terrible players, shoving and calling far too wide.

/thread
omg please stop posting , so sad, pro

     
  18-Nov-12, 01:33   #3
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by godlike666:
[QUOTE]Posted by retribution:
Okay, so this hand is from a 9man hyper turbo step 1 on Ft.

Buyin: Step 1 ticket $3.30


Both villains are typical terrible players, shoving and calling far too wide.

/thread
omg please stop posting , so sad, pro


Results are not relevant, I'm asking if it was/wasn't a good/bad call. I'm really confused about the spot.

Besides, I wouldn't classify $3.30 as the micros btw. Perhaps the top end of the micros at the very least.

Edited by retribution (Sunday, November 18, 2012 @ 01:39 GMT)


     
  18-Nov-12, 02:43   #4
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Personally with spots like that I don't really see them as good or bad.. I think you can fold or call there.. I mean, you know you're probably flipping - but you're about to blind away any how.. I think I generally call too.

------------
just realised it was 3-way, oops. Still - OK you're not 'flipping' any more.. but same principle, you can really call or fold in that spot.. You're never going to be dominating the hand - so it's basically just a fairly neutral EV gamble IMO.

     
  18-Nov-12, 06:25   #5
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jessthehuman:
Personally with spots like that I don't really see them as good or bad.. I think you can fold or call there.. I mean, you know you're probably flipping - but you're about to blind away any how.. I think I generally call too.

------------
just realised it was 3-way, oops. Still - OK you're not 'flipping' any more.. but same principle, you can really call or fold in that spot.. You're never going to be dominating the hand - so it's basically just a fairly neutral EV gamble IMO.


Well vs their holdings, I was 56% to win, but I think partially due to 1 of their over-cards lowering their odds. These are the spots I really am unsure about, as the risk-gain seems so clear cut, yet ICM can indicate a poor shove/call that otherwise looks marginal/good. Thus why these are the kind of spots I ask for analysis on.

The over-call was the only thing that conflicted me, otherwise I'd be snap-calling that spot all day 1v1.

     
  18-Nov-12, 10:29   #6
  0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
i suppose HEM2 see's this as giving away your equity because in a 3-way pot your 66 could be facing four over cards and the guy who calls the all in could knock that other one out and, even tho you would be left with 3.5BB, you will have more equity in that case than you would if you call and lose.
these are marginal spots tho so i think it can't be -EV by that much.
iv'e never used hem2 or anything similar but read a bit about them and these situations so i'm not 100% sure about it but i'm sure its all about your equity.

i would of called in that spot tho. without a second thought.

     
  18-Nov-12, 11:15   #7
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
I would have called the all-in in that spot too. As you said the sb is coming, you don't have a lot of time left, so I think pocket pair at that point is a good time to get it all in the middle and hope it holds or spikes trips. If it works you triple up which is what happened for you.

     
  19-Nov-12, 04:24   #8
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by bullettooth1:
i suppose HEM2 see's this as giving away your equity because in a 3-way pot your 66 could be facing four over cards and the guy who calls the all in could knock that other one out and, even tho you would be left with 3.5BB, you will have more equity in that case than you would if you call and lose.
these are marginal spots tho so i think it can't be -EV by that much.
iv'e never used hem2 or anything similar but read a bit about them and these situations so i'm not 100% sure about it but i'm sure its all about your equity.

i would of called in that spot tho. without a second thought.


Well the problem with programs like HEM or ICM wizard, is they don't take into consideration how the blinds affect the following hands. Example, if you shove UTG, it doesn't take into consideration that you'll be in the blinds next hand, which can skew really the results.

If you're serious about improving your game like it seems you are, I'd HIGHLY recommend using 1. Seriously lol !!!! Both come with 30 day trials, and are super easy to set up. If you run into problems getting it going, you can always post here and I can help you out.

     
  19-Nov-12, 09:22   #9
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
My brains say ship it but i dont use poker software.

     
  19-Nov-12, 10:37   #10
 
This post by gimini-ro has been removed, probably due to being spam or because it was irrelevant to this topic.
  19-Nov-12, 17:04   #11
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2121
I don't see a reason good enough to fold 66 with less than 4 BBs left in that spot, even if the 2 guys who shoved before you were good. We all know that computers or programs can calculate crazy amounts of informations much faster than a normal human brain. But our brains have one thing called "common sense", let's not forget to use that Blink

     
  19-Nov-12, 17:25   #12
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by TheMachineQC:
But our brains have one thing called "common sense", let's not forget to use that Blink

Speak for yourself... Blink

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have.
Rene Descartes

     
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