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  3-Dec-12, 12:47   #1
Is this the correct call? 0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
pretty much as it says! i'm getting just under 2 to 1 to call. outcome is irrelevant. i want to know if it is a correct call or not.
cheers people Thumbs Up

Attached Imagesuntitled.JPG

     
  3-Dec-12, 13:01   #2
  0 
fcumred 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1238
Posted by bullettooth1:
pretty much as it says! i'm getting just under 2 to 1 to call. outcome is irrelevant. i want to know if it is a correct call or not.
cheers people Thumbs Up


If you look at the pot odds, I would say its a marginal call. Yes you had the odds to call, but with such a weak holding sometimes you have to just let a hand go.

I don't think the call was totally unreasonable, in fact I most probably would have called myself in a simiilar situation.

     
  3-Dec-12, 13:17   #3
  0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
yeah i was thing it was pretty tight. probs should of been a fold. but with it being two low cards it was unlikely he had me dominated so maybe i was a 35% dog at worst?
plus i had quite a few chips so wouldn't have impacted too much if i lost the hand.

always good to hear other people's views on such matters tho Big Smile

------------
went downhill after that hand tho lol. lost a flip with AK, some guy called my c-bet with a gut shot and i had air. then i went out in 16th with 66 against AK.
oh well was fun Big Smile

     
  3-Dec-12, 13:25   #4
  0 
xdomagojx 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Croatia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 399
Good call. He was too short for you not to call.

     
  3-Dec-12, 13:29   #5
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
Of course it is. You are already playing to elliminate competitors, you have 8 times more chips than him, your hand isn't that good but i consider that, in this case, any two cards should be enough to give the call to your opponent's all-in. I saw you won, but even if you haven't, that's the move you have to do in your position, with that kind of stack.

     
  3-Dec-12, 13:37   #6
  0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
thanks people. that's what i hoping for Big Smile

     
  3-Dec-12, 14:11   #7
  0 
xdomagojx 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Croatia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 399
Posted by bullettooth1:
thanks people. that's what i hoping for Big Smile


Just remember for future reference that it's good call cause of blind levels. If the blinds were 800/400 would make it a bad call.
Cheers.

     
  3-Dec-12, 14:29   #8
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
You're getting 1.7 : 1 odds, and you're about a 2 : 1 underdog with 73o, so it's -EV to call I'd say...

I'd try to stick with +EV decisions in these situations, but admittedly I would probably not have worked it out in time...

     
  3-Dec-12, 14:51   #9
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1477
The risk if he won, just make him stronger. But depend on your feeling at that time, lol. Even heads up and he had short stake, that's not good call. Just luck factor !Your feeling in good mood so you have good stake Big Smile Big Smile

     
  3-Dec-12, 16:26   #10
  0 
MarcWinz 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 644
Posted by marqis:
You're getting 1.7 : 1 odds, and you're about a 2 : 1 underdog with 73o, so it's -EV to call I'd say...

I'd try to stick with +EV decisions in these situations, but admittedly I would probably not have worked it out in time...



Hi Tony

As Marqis has said you were getting odds of 1.7:1 which makes it a easy call with blinds at that level. I would also say it depends on what type of hand you think the opponent would go all-in with - i.e. is he loose or a tight player.

Good call any way I see from the botton of the screen you got two pair - Is that right? See you on the turf soon I hope

Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  4-Dec-12, 01:31   #11
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by bullettooth1:
pretty much as it says! i'm getting just under 2 to 1 to call. outcome is irrelevant. i want to know if it is a correct call or not.
cheers people Thumbs Up


Pre-flop it's a horrible call. I'm assuming you were BB facing a LP raise. Sure they are often stealing wide, but 73 is a BAD hand to try any sort of move with.

Look at it this way. You put another 6,900 chips in, which is around 1/12th of your stack. It may not seem like a lot, but if you consider your M(Your M is around (70k / 2,750) = 30), you're NOT in a spot to start tossing chips away by playing weak hands that won't pay off often enough to be +ev.

I'd say shut-down pre-flop 100% of the time. Calling is HORRIBLE in this spot. It's hard to tell how the rest of the hand went down, but I'd instantly be shutting down to any bet on the flop or turn, as you've only got bottom pair and a VERY weak kicker.

Sorry man, I think this whole hand was a total train-wreck to be honest, and you're damn lucky you won.

The thing about you getting "2 to 1" odds is slightly skewed by the fact that this is a tournament. ICM has a lot of weight in tournaments, and what may be a slightly positive or neutral cEV play can actually be terribly -$EV.

There's a big difference between a +cEV play, and a +$Ev play. This is why I always preach ICM so much.

*Edit*

Hmmm, didn't realize it was an all-in shove. That changes things a bit. I still don't like calling THAT lightly, because you're weak against so much of what he's shoving in that spot with. If you were close to a bubble, I'd say making the call would be 100% correct, but if your not it seems kinda blah to me. What I DON'T like, is making that call, losing and doubling him up, and then we're facing a bigger shove next round, which is pretty likely given his stack size will still be in bad shape once he hits BTN again.

Edited by retribution (Tuesday, December 04, 2012 @ 01:40 GMT)


     
  4-Dec-12, 04:33   #12
  0 
fcumred 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1238
The other thing that needs taking into account is how many players were left in, what is the "risk/reward" for calliing.

If that were a final table of an MTT, and by calling you KO another player and move up a money spot, then yes, its an instacall. The benefits of calling and winning outweigh the losses incurred if you lose.

However, if its in the middle of an MTT and there are still quite a few players in and its a way from the bubble, then it becomes a terrible call.

Like everything in poker, its situational, and unless we know how many players were left in, where you stood in terms of the money, its very hard to say.

     
  4-Dec-12, 09:56   #13
  0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
cheers for that retribution. i need to get more of an idea about tournament odds. i knew it was very borderline, probably more on the fold side.
yes it was just a shove and i had to call 6888 to win slightly over 12K i think he was the 19th place finisher so it went to two tables after he got KO'd and the money went up slightly.

     
  4-Dec-12, 13:15   #14
  0 
xdomagojx 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Croatia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 399
Posted by bullettooth1:
cheers for that retribution. i need to get more of an idea about tournament odds. i knew it was very borderline, probably more on the fold side.
yes it was just a shove and i had to call 6888 to win slightly over 12K i think he was the 19th place finisher so it went to two tables after he got KO'd and the money went up slightly.


Retribution missed it by a mile. WE are talking about this situation not situation on beginning of tournament or middle stage or whatever. We are talking about this specific example and these levels.

THE ONLY thing you are looking at here is number of bbs he had. He has 5 bbs and you are in BB with 40+ bbs so that makes it 4 BBs and that situation eliminates all other crap like your holecards. It just doesnt matter cause you always have odds to call and it always pays off to call.

For example - if you folded you are giving him 2.5bbs and thats half of his stack left and you only need to invest 4bbs to call (thats only raise on one street). 2 times you guys fold he already doubled up so no way you want to fold!!.

And like i said if blinds were 1 step lower its bad call. Here it s good with any two vs any kind of opponent.
I dont want to argue retribution but for someone that uses terms such as ICM, +cev, +$ev you have no fkn clue why this is good call.

     
  4-Dec-12, 20:18   #15
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
I'd say it was a fold but I cannot add any more reasons that haven't been said. I agree most with fcumred but I typically fold these hands cos I so often run into pairs. I'd just rather not leave it to chance, if the player shoves lightly often then there will be better opportunities, and in a tournament there are no prizes for knocking a player out early. If you fold all you lose is your blind, which you can afford to lose, but if you call there will usually be high risk for very little reward.

     
  4-Dec-12, 20:31   #16
  0 
bullettooth1 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1635
Posted by awood88:
I'd say it was a fold but I cannot add any more reasons that haven't been said. I agree most with fcumred but I typically fold these hands cos I so often run into pairs. I'd just rather not leave it to chance, if the player shoves lightly often then there will be better opportunities, and in a tournament there are no prizes for knocking a player out early. If you fold all you lose is your blind, which you can afford to lose, but if you call there will usually be high risk for very little reward.

That's not totally correct either as he was the 19th player to be eliminated so my knocking him out took the tables down to two and as a result the money jumped up a bit. So theoretically I did get something for knocking him out, as did everyone else Big Smile
I did take that into consideration when making the call aswell

     
  4-Dec-12, 22:06   #17
  0 
Weenie 
Joined: Aug '12
Location: Slovakia
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 678
I think it could be good to fold same like to call Smile Really tough one bro... When I am counting right there was slightly over 11000 in pot. And you had 6,800 to call. 37 means that you will have probably 2 "free cards" what is good. I would probably fold, but you didnt make mistake with call Smile

     
  5-Dec-12, 07:15   #18
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by xdomagojx:

Retribution missed it by a mile. WE are talking about this situation not situation on beginning of tournament or middle stage or whatever. We are talking about this specific example and these levels.
Thus why I made an edit after. If you see the second part of my post, you'll clearly see I went into more detail. This isn't a cut and dry spot, and it's very dependant on several factors such as bubble, other stack sizes, etc.

Posted by xdomagojx:
THE ONLY thing you are looking at here is number of bbs he had. He has 5 bbs and you are in BB with 40+ bbs so that makes it 4 BBs and that situation eliminates all other crap like your holecards.
Sorry, but you're way wrong here. Hole cards DO have SOME bearing. I'd snap call that shove instantly with basically any face card, any PP and probably even J10. I really don't think you can be calling with crap like 73o though, as you're practically giving equity away by calling. With crap like 730, you're absolutely dominated by around 90% of what he's going to be shoving with.

Posted by xdomagojx:
It just doesnt matter cause you always have odds to call and it always pays off to call.
Equity > odds. The chips you lose are worth FAR more than the chips you gain when close to pay jumps.

Posted by xdomagojx:
For example - if you folded you are giving him 2.5bbs and thats half of his stack left and you only need to invest 4bbs to call (thats only raise on one street). 2 times you guys fold he already doubled up so no way you want to fold!!.


Uhm, if OP is in BB and he folds to the jam, how exactly is he giving him 2.5BBs? I don't know what form of poker makes someone post 2.5bb in the BB. villain shoves in CO, sb folds. At this point there's 1.5BB + the antes which add around 1 more BB, so YES the total POT is 2.5bb, but Op is only giving up 1. So in reality OP is calling a shove of another 4.5BB into a pot of 2.5.

But look at it this way. If OP calls and loses, villain now has around 2.5BB + 5.5x2=11 = 13.5BB.
Villain will be around 8-9BB next time he's in btn AND op will be 5.5BB lighter because of his call. See how much of a difference a call vs a fold can make, especially knowing he'll be re-blinded down again in less than 1 orbit. Not to mention, calling and LOSING actually gives villain some fold equity on future hands, so he actually COULD end up stealing more before the orbits over.

If OP folds, villain has 2.5BB + 5.5BB = 8. After another orbit, he'll be back down to around 5.5 unless he doubles up or steals again (unlikely he'll steal in EP unless the table is clueless and stupid tight. He also still won't have much fold equity with only 8BB, and he's still in a bad spot where he's got to be shoving wider, and thus is more likely to get picked off by another one of the players.

I'd rather make a marginal fold, wait an orbit and possibly pick him off next time with a better hand if someone else hasn't already taken him out. Because he's so short, you're going to see all the bigger stacks going after him, so let them. The BIGGEST mistake I ALWAYS see made, is big stacks calling down little stacks retardely light, and after a few hands THEY are the shorty. Let the other players make the mistakes, pick your spots better instead of pissing away your chips trying to make hero calls that are -ev.

Posted by xdomagojx:
And like i said if blinds were 1 step lower its bad call. Here it s good with any two vs any kind of opponent.
Well given this would effectively DOUBLE everyone's stack sizes, this is a pretty obvious statement now isn't it?

Posted by xdomagojx:
I dont want to argue retribution but for someone that uses terms such as ICM, +cev, +$ev you have no fkn clue why this is good call.


Uh...okay bud. Please, explain to me what any of those concepts are, and how to calculate and apply them at the table.

Also, another question. If you could SEE villains hand, and KNEW he was shoving AJo, would you still call? What about K10. 88? 55?

Edited by retribution (Wednesday, December 05, 2012 @ 07:22 GMT)


     
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