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What would you do ?
 

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  15-Jan-13, 09:35   #1
SNG DoN folding monsterhands 0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1343
What would you do ?

SNG DoN 10 players , 4 players out , 6 left

You have 4000 chips , others have 5900,5700,2200 and 2200

blinds are 100/200, you are on the button

player with 2200 chips is UTG and goes allin

others fold and you are on the button with KK

The 2 bigstacks are on the sb and BB

Would you call, raise or fold this ??


     
  15-Jan-13, 09:50   #2
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
I'd call. As it's a DoN raising would be the wrong thing to do. You really want the SB and BB to come along giving three chances to knock out the short stack.

     
  15-Jan-13, 10:04   #3
  0 
Mysik86 

Joined: Nov '11
Location: Poland
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 773
It's bubble - the gold rule of SnG DoN is - never risk when someone goes all-in in bubble - fold everything because if bigstacks call him, and they win - you are in cash! And if you call him, and bigstacks call or, even worse, bet - you risk so much!

     
  15-Jan-13, 10:20   #4
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
No offense, but I think both replies are dead wrong. If you shove to isolate, big stacks are going to fold pretty much their entire range, minus perhaps JJ+. It'd be incorrect for them to call with anything less given ICM. Flat calling and inviting 1 or both bigstacks in is just plain ludicrous, as it gives them a chance to fold you out of the hand OTF if the board is wet/scary. And if they fold you out, and UTG wins, there goes half your stack AND now you're the shorty.

Considering that, it's a snap call and a fist-pump. Litterally only thing UTG could have that dominates you is AA, and given he's about to hit the blind, he's gotta be shoving pretty wide considering he's the shorty. Even if you lose, you're still alive. Whereas if you invite either blind in, you could potentially be eliminated.

It's safe to assume, that if you shove, neither of the blinds is calling unless they wake up with a monster. And even then the only thing you're afraid to see is AA. Why would they call, when they can fold and let you take all the risk. After all, if either of them calls and loses, they will be in bad shape, so as long as they aren't complete morons, they're almost NEVER calling your shove.

     
  15-Jan-13, 10:28   #5
  0 
zeroster 

Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1372
Posted by retribution:
Flat calling and inviting 1 or both bigstacks in is just plain ludicrous, as it gives them a chance to fold you out of the hand OTF if the board is wet/scary.


But why would they want to fold you out, on the bubble in a DoN? There would be absolutely no point or reason to do it. They shouldn't care who wins the hand providing it's not the shorty.

Keep in mind this is a DoN, next player out ends the game and all remaining players are getting the same prize regardless of finishing position.

Edited by zeroster (Tuesday, January 15, 2013 @ 10:43 GMT)


     
  15-Jan-13, 11:01   #6
  0 
magatt966 

Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 3713
I would consider either folding or shoving allin: consider both correct moves here.

I would never call.

Btw in the poll voted for shove:because it's more exciting than folding Big Smile

     
  15-Jan-13, 11:10   #7
  0 
kinogomes 

Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 998
Its a call with no looking back!! 2200 at this point means desperate steal blinds even utg! In my opinion when things get really tight most of the players insta all in with Kq, KJ K10, QJ!

     
  15-Jan-13, 11:24   #8
  0 
MIGO14 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1235
I am with zeroster here. Calling would be my play in this situation in a DoN and only in a DoN!!!
If Bigstacks in SB and BB are experienced DoN players the both come along and also call.
But again: Calling here only in a DoN ! In other games I would push.

     
  15-Jan-13, 11:33   #9
  0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1343
well i play DoN regurlarly and a little profitable at 0.5 to 1 dollar.

I play them very tight and have a win ratio of +/- 70-75%.

I would fold this.... why

I am in 3 rd position which means 2 others have to gather more chips then me ( objective is to be in the top 5, position 1rst or 5 th does not matter), so if I fold it cost me no chips.I keep for sure my 3 rd position

If I am lucky one of the bigstacks is calling hsim, otherwise he s winning 1.5 blind.

but to the figures : if he s holding something like AQs, my winning chances preflop with KK would be around 70%. So about 1/3 I get a bad flop for me and I loose and get into last position.

So better to fold and wait for other chances.. or anyboy else to do the dirty job


In a normal SNG this is different, then I would defenitely go allin.

     
  15-Jan-13, 12:17   #10
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by zeroster:
I'd call. As it's a DoN raising would be the wrong thing to do. You really want the SB and BB to come along giving three chances to knock out the short stack.


I'm no DoN whiz, definitely not a master of the format - but this would be my line of thinking too, sounds about right to me.

     
  15-Jan-13, 12:57   #11
  0 
lukasb 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Croatia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1735
In this situation i would shove to isolate. No need to drag the big stacks along so they might get a chance of knocking u out with some lucky flop. The small stack probably is shoving with anything at this point so unless he got aces ( which i doubt coz in this case he wouldn't shove, would just raise hoping someone would call him) you have him pretty much dominated.

     
  15-Jan-13, 13:06   #12
  0 
Mysik86 

Joined: Nov '11
Location: Poland
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 773
Posted by thefly131:
I would fold this.... why
I am in 3 rd position which means 2 others have to gather more chips then me ( objective is to be in the top 5, position 1rst or 5 th does not matter), so if I fold it cost me no chips.I keep for sure my 3 rd position
If I am lucky one of the bigstacks is calling hsim, otherwise he s winning 1.5 blind.
but to the figures : if he s holding something like AQs, my winning chances preflop with KK would be around 70%. So about 1/3 I get a bad flop for me and I loose and get into last position.
So better to fold and wait for other chances.. or anyboy else to do the dirty job


Exactly! This is exactly what I said, but you develop it in more words... Risk is too high for me to not fold.

     
  15-Jan-13, 13:49   #13
  0 
Nightmare161 
Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 86
Posted by zeroster:
I'd call. As it's a DoN raising would be the wrong thing to do. You really want the SB and BB to come along giving three chances to knock out the short stack.


I agree, all that should matter is the UTG short stack raiser doesn't win the hand.If the SB or BB call then i would check it down to the river giving them a chance to hit two pair or better and ko the short stack.

     
  15-Jan-13, 13:56   #14
  0 
qzmag 
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 704
i ussualy dont play the hands when im about to be in the paid places .... and tbh itțs like 90-100% , BB call and SB .... but now depends how you played untill then , if you managed to see how your oppenents played .... you can call / raise to all-in.

Have a nice day.

     
  15-Jan-13, 16:15   #15
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
You play to reach paid places, which are all the same, not to be first or second at the tourney. If you decide to play this hand and win the game finishes and you double up your entrance as a prize, but if you happen to lose this hand you will pass to the last position and things will turn much more difficult to think about the prizes. There are players with better conditions to try to eliminate one of those two shorter stacks. I wouldn’t play it.

     
  15-Jan-13, 17:01   #16
  0 
Terroreffekt 
Joined: Jul '12
Location: Germany
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 62
So in this situation I would call it.
Why would not it still had a few chips on
With KK and a short stack goes all in before the flop
The short stack had no more than 11 big blinds so he naturally tries to grab the blinds
But honestly all give their opinion here, we will want to know later what's really happened? Cool

     
  15-Jan-13, 18:54   #17
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by zeroster:
Posted by retribution:
Flat calling and inviting 1 or both bigstacks in is just plain ludicrous, as it gives them a chance to fold you out of the hand OTF if the board is wet/scary.


But why would they want to fold you out, on the bubble in a DoN? There would be absolutely no point or reason to do it. They shouldn't care who wins the hand providing it's not the shorty.

Keep in mind this is a DoN, next player out ends the game and all remaining players are getting the same prize regardless of finishing position.


Okay, so you call, they call and flop comes 8910 all of 1 suit you have neither of. 1 blind then puts in the rest of your chips. What about if the board comes A59? JJQ? What do you do then? What if they are bluffing, you fold, but shover wins. What if the board comes Axx and 1 of the blinds shove you call and both the blind and UTG show low aces. They chop and you're fucked. I've seen similar scenarios like that a lot. You can't rely on other players to make the right move, because quite often they are stupid beyond all comprehension. Poker isn't a team game, every player at the table is out to take your money.

There are lot's of scenarios where one of the blinds could push you out of the hand or end up knocking you out.

A) They are total idiot fish
B) One has a monster
C) They have no idea that them calling inflates the pot should shorty win.
D) Etc.

And based on C is another reason why asking one or both of the blinds along is a bad idea. It inflates the pot should shorty win, giving them that many more chips. Not that it's really relevant who has what chips afterwards, but it does quite heavily shift the balance against you.

Why create any scenario where there's a chance you could lose. You're 87% favorite to win against all but 1 hand UTG could have, and even if he has Aces you're not completely dead. If he has aces, he's the 87% favorite, whereas if 1 blind comes in, his chances only drop to I think 68%. I won't bother doing the math, but against ATC he's still live unless you both have 1 of his cards.

I'm sorry, I just don't see many scenarios where 1 of the blinds is going to risk 1/3 of their stack on the bubble playing out well for you.

Edited by retribution (Tuesday, January 15, 2013 @ 19:04 GMT)


     
  15-Jan-13, 23:25   #18
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
I play SnG's for the most part and like to think I win my share or at least which definitely has nothing to do with the question at hand.
Since I see alot of players going allin with rarely nothing I would have to call since I think the player has a small pair or an AK, AQ at the most. It's all based on the buyin also. If I'm playing with a $1.10 buyin I'm calling KK just because I feel it's a value bettin hand in this case, but I'm not that experienced, but that's my call.

     
  15-Jan-13, 23:38   #19
  0 
teddybears73 
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 3170
i don't know if this is correct or not but in that position i would fold and leave it to the blinds to take the guy out. if you call and he has an ace rag well they always seem to hit,and if it did then you are short stack and struggling, no i think it's down to the blinds there to call him.
so therefore i'd fold!!!

     
  15-Jan-13, 23:57   #20
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4847
To some extent it depends on what the initial all in raiser has been doing through the game. Depending on his range, if you decide to play, then all in is your only option, cos if you call and get raised, will you fold?

     
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