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Joined: Nov '12
Location: Australia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2
Right, lets get some facts straight...
FTP was not rigged it was a group of high stake players targeting other high stake players with trogin downloads then using that backdoor to watch there hands live... this can happen on any poker site in the world and the players can only be blammed for having poor security.
In regards to 888 they are legit i have won cash, and troy ounces of silver, never had a problem.....
You just lost, that happens, go read a book and dont be a sore sport.... The bad beats i could tell you would make you shiver, it happens, even in real life tables.... Thats why i hate russian freerollers... they call everything!!!
Joined: Nov '12
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 4675
Posted by xSCOTTIEx: Right, lets get some facts straight...
FTP was not rigged it was a group of high stake players targeting other high stake players with trogin downloads then using that backdoor to watch there hands live... this can happen on any poker site in the world and the players can only be blammed for having poor security.
In regards to 888 they are legit i have won cash, and troy ounces of silver, never had a problem.....
You just lost, that happens, go read a book and dont be a sore sport.... The bad beats i could tell you would make you shiver, it happens, even in real life tables.... Thats why i hate russian freerollers... they call everything!!!
G'day Amigo
Well I must agree with you on this one. I too have suffered some massive bad beast both live and inline. I have even sucked out a dew major come from behind wins but I like them ones Be cool and best of luck to you
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by xSCOTTIEx: Right, lets get some facts straight...
FTP was not rigged it was a group of high stake players targeting other high stake players with trogin downloads then using that backdoor to watch there hands live... this can happen on any poker site in the world and the players can only be blammed for having poor security.
That can happen on any site, but that is trojans are NOT the FTP scandal - please google it, Howard ledderer et al, anyway - it was a question of mis-management of play funds by the owners of FTP.
I *think* you're referring to the Ultimate Bet / Action Poker scandal, where people used special employee (super user) logins to enable them to see other high-stakes players hole cards during hands (not via trojans).
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Posted by xSCOTTIEx: In regards to 888 they are legit i have won cash, and troy ounces of silver, never had a problem.....
This is why huge sample sizes are so important when discussing a rigged RNG. Everyone's experiences are going to vary a LOT from variance alone, let alone player skill level. You really need huge samples, like 1million+ hands, to be making these sorts of claims, otherwise you literally have no (statistical) basis for your claim.
Joined: Mar '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 83
888 are legit i have won cash Many people won cash on Ultimate bet (doesnt mean its legit ) I won a stack of cash on Kingdom of poker (Its definetly not legit ) I have won on quite a lot on 888 ! If you had bothered to read the whole post ,you will see from the links i have supplied that 888 is self regulated and rng cant be trusted to be 100% fair all the time !!! Like i said people are blind until it happens to them ! xscottiex - I just checked your stats on 888 - you joined on 9-11-12 you have played 12 games - losing your free $5 and show a loss of £5.88p I really cant see how you can pass judgement on this site !
Edited by kingfisha (24 February 2013 @ 11:38 GMT)
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 102
I AM A WINNING PLAYER AT 888POKER BUT I STILL THINK ITS RIGGED IVE LOST NOTHING I JUST FOLD KK PRE BUBBLE ETC LIKE THAT MAGIC61 ON UTUBE WHO WAS CONVINVED POKERSTARS WAS RIGGED AND SOUNDED LIKE A CLASSIC RIGTARD AND PERHAPS A FOOL WHO COULDNT HANDLE HIS LOSES HE WAS WINNING ON POKERSTARS AND ALSO NOT LOSING WHAT REALLY GETS TO ME IS WHEN U DESERVE THE 800 FIRST PRIZE U GET BUMFKD BY A MIRACLE RIVER BY SOME RANDOMITE WITH 62 DESTROYING YOUR AA AND KK AND ASK URSELF WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME U BLASTED AA WITH 62 AS U REALISE U JUST MADE 3 DOLLARS MORE THAN YOUR 7 DOLLARS BUY IN BUT HAVE THO SMOKED A HENRY AND DRANK 4 STELLAS AND TEN FAGS AND PERHAPS A BIG BACK OF CHILLI HEATWAVE DORITOS WHICH HAS AN OUTLAY OF 30 POUNDS AND YOUR HIGH IS ABSOULOUTLEY RUINED AND IN EFFECT THUS BEING 28.70 OUT OF POCKET , CAN ANYONE RELATE TO THIS OR DO I HAVE BIG FKING ISSUES RVSP / #
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Posted by xSCOTTIEx: Right, lets get some facts straight...
FTP was not rigged it was a group of high stake players targeting other high stake players with trogin downloads then using that backdoor to watch there hands live... this can happen on any poker site in the world and the players can only be blammed for having poor security.
In regards to 888 they are legit i have won cash, and troy ounces of silver, never had a problem.....
You just lost, that happens, go read a book and dont be a sore sport.... The bad beats i could tell you would make you shiver, it happens, even in real life tables.... Thats why i hate russian freerollers... they call everything!!!
Joined: Mar '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 83
gmgm - are you sure you are a winning player ??? whats your name on there ???? The only player i can find is gmgm1818 who is nearly £4000 down You have a choice dont play on threre !!!!!
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by gmgm:
Yeah sorry I am really lazy. Although, in brief: I agree with what you're saying about the regulation anyway. I just don't see what that has to do with a fixed RNG. But I completely agree: Poker is largely 'unregulated' and the way in which sites ARE regulated and licenses is shoddy at best, shady at worst and definitely allows for a lot of unsavoury practises.
It's just that fixing an RNG, for a lot of logical reasons, is always very unlikely, at any poker site. There's just better ways of stealing your money, to put it simply, than compromising the integrity of the game, which simply compromises the reputation of their site and would undoubtedly be discovered (by the big name players on 2+2 etc).
EDIT: Sorry, reply to wrong person. I mean to say I agree with KingFisha on the regulation issues. he is right, there is huge issues with online gambling regulation and I think poker players in general have been burnt often enough that pretty much everyone in the community would welcome well-regulated games by bodies that are independent and located in a country like USA or England, etc.
gmgm you're just a tard who writes in capslock and I suspect is a losing player.
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Posted by gmgm: 888hitsquad and lahitsquad i learned there on 888hitsquad profile and initially lost heavilly.
------------ i like pokercam
also, multi-accounting is cheating. You shouldn't cheat. It's hard to find any respect for you when you openly admit on a public forum that you're a poker-cheat. Unless 888 allow multi-accounting which would be very unusual.
Edited by jessthehuman (06 March 2013 @ 01:20 GMT)
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Serbia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 290
Posted by jessthehuman: You really need huge samples, like 1million+ hands, to be making these sorts of claims, otherwise you literally have no (statistical) basis for your claim.
BS... Do you have huge sample of 1 million hands to prove that 888 is not rigged??? Or any other poker site?
All internet gambling sites are rigged. Not just poker, online casinos and bingo are rigged, too.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by stojaca:
Posted by jessthehuman: You really need huge samples, like 1million+ hands, to be making these sorts of claims, otherwise you literally have no (statistical) basis for your claim.
BS... Do you have huge sample of 1 million hands to prove that 888 is not rigged??? Or any other poker site?
it is not BS, this is standard accepted fact for testing probabilities beyond natural variance. A million hands is enough that most things should be very close to their expected results (with a few exception, like the amount of Royal Flushes received or something, since their probabilities of occurrence are so high that to test that is normal you would need an absurd sample). But a million hands is enough to test basic occurrences and all-in-percantages and such.
If I play a single session I'll often easily log of 10,000 hands in a session. Not always, but quite often. A million hands isn't that much to ask for and if you're calling BS on a sites RNG and you have f**k all hands, then obviously your complaint is b******t anyway. If you have only 30,000 hands at 888 for example and you're calling it rigged then you truly are a complete f**king moron - since you're basing your decision that it's NOT variance but in fact a rigged RNG on what is seriously only a few sessions worth of hands. Which is f**king beyond stupid. It's retarded.
Posted by stojaca:
All internet gambling sites are rigged. Not just poker, online casinos and bingo are rigged, too.
Oh really?
Of course gambling is "rigged" It says so right on the instructions. It IS unbeatable by definition, there's no reason to "rig" slots of BlackJack or whatever, its a rigged game by default lol. People who complain Slots, BJ, Roulette, etc are rigged are f**king morons - they're DESIGNED to make you lose lol. YOU CANNOT BEAT THESE GAMES - Of course they are rigged, it's in the f**king game description !
------------ EDIT: Oh and regarding a million hand + database. I understand that if you believe a site is rigged, for what ever reason, based on your tiny sample of hands. I can understand you may not want to continue playing until you've reached a million hands. However - do not distress! Simply gather your rigtard mates together and POOL YOUR HAND HISTORIES. Seriously, it shouldn't take many people, with even on a couple months each on a site, to gather a million hands, it really isn't that much.
Just a side note: to anyone reading this. if a million hands seems like some absurd number to you, then that is because you're NOT a poker-grinder. And that is fine, there is no problem with being a casual player. But understand this: If you're NOT putting in that kind of volume, then you have literally no right to be making absurd statements about a sites RNG, because you simply are NOT playing enough to even come close to your EV.
Edited by jessthehuman (06 March 2013 @ 02:35 GMT)
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 747
wow that was an epic read, spending a lot of time on the forum lately, a sure sign ive blown my roll. ive only got about 50k hands in my PKR directory but i formatted the laptop last year.
as for jesse's advice to people i would sugest you all listen to what he says and try and learn from it when i focus on getting better results i try to compare myself to other players, i often see how other players are doing and have watched jesse play and studed his results i have seen him loose $1000 through variance playing in many mtts but build it back up a day later he is not the only one there are a few mobsters who yu dont see about much any more who had better results than jess like doomdy who would be saying the exact same things jess is saying about taking responcabilty for your own results. yes bad beats happen, and i can say for certain that you do get a lot more of them playing on online poker than you do live. its not down to the sites or the rng, or the russian donks or whatever, its the volume of hand and players, i think of a playing tournament online like playng five tournaments in a casino because thats how many more players there are, and in 5 live tournaments your gonna have a big pair cracked, hell at gentings i beat some guys JJ with a 23o (clearly a sign that live poker is rigged? i 3bet on the button foolishly tring to steal the blinds and when reraised it i called just to try and mask the fact i raised him with f all and just happened to flop 2 pair, shove boat on the river, it was bad play on my part, but thats poker). as for online casinos and slots, i dont feel you can beat them its just a button that takes an average of 20% of your stake every time you press it, and is designed to keep you pressing it. same for pub slots and FOBTs (where did they all suddenly come from)
as for the whole aruement that 888 is rigged, i will point out this, 888 has been around for quite some time and am sure they have been audited many times. as part of the gaming licence the RNG is indepenantly inspected every 6 or 12 months, where they basically draw up WELL OVER 1m hands and compare the results for inconsistancies. after readng through all this thread and many before it if you still think these sites are rigged or the companies are tring to cheat you then the best thing yu can do is just stop playing. the saying goes fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me and if anyone has carried on being fooled for 3 years you got some serious problems.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by kingfisha: And still the questions remain unanswered !!! 1- Why do poker sites regulate themselves ?????
Short answer is, they don't. However - the actual regulation and testing they're subjected to varies a lot through the different sites. So we'll talk specifically about 888.
Licensed by the Government of Gibraltar and Regulated by the Gibraltar Gambling Commissioner. They're audited and tested by eCOGRA.
I understand your concerns and I've addressed them already in this thread.
Posted by kingfisha:
2 - Why do they base themselves offshore ???
This is fairly obvious: Tax havens mostly. Also local laws, a lot of countries don't actually allow online gambling (such as my country) and as such, sites would be illegal to operate from lots of countries. That said saying "Offshore" is kind of bizarre, when you're talking about The Internet. There is no 'offshore' because every where is somewhere elses offshore. However, I assume you mean to say "Why do they base themselves in small nations and not major Western Countries like England or the USA".
But yeah, pretty well comes down to wanting to operate somewhere they can obtain a license and also not be taxed too much.
Posted by kingfisha:
3- Why wont they allow independant audit of their sites ???
Pretty much every site does actually. 888 allow eCOGRA, other sites have other auditors, I doubt there is any major site that doesn't allow independent audits.
Posted by kingfisha:
4 - who do you think pays for sites like BRM ?? its the poker sites !
No idea what your point is with this one.
OK - now I understand your concerns with eCOGRA and with licensing and regulation often being proved by small island nations, etc. However, I don't see the connection between this and having a fixed RNG - which is all I wish to discuss.
The thing with fucking with an RNG, is that it is incredibly easy to test, all you need to do is analyse what everyone has access to: Hand Histories. A million HH isn't much and if you don't have it yourself, pool together with like-minded people, I'm sure you could easily pool 10 million+ hands and see if there's anything suspicious.
And here is the thing, as you may expect - people have done this, for various poker sites and every time somebody analyses a huge sample of hand histories, everything is within the expectation (not rigged0.
If for example yourself and your friend on 888 pooled your HH, got over a million hands, analysed them and found them to be suspicious, you could then publish your results on 2+2. This itself might not be enough to convince others it is rigged, but it WILL be enough to convince enough other people to do the same thing and come to the same conclusion. Then a massive scandal will erupt and 888 would suffer enormously from bad press and hurt it's business permanently and irredeemably.
This is why, to put it simply, I can be fairly certain no sites RNG is rigged - because it is far too easily exposed, anyone can test it (independent auditors? Anyone can do it mate). It's such a simple thing to expose, if it is fixed. And once exposed the damage to the sites reputation would cost the site far more than any potential gain from fixing their RNG.
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Posted by takingdrugs: i will point out this, 888 has been around for quite some time and am sure they have been audited many times.
they've also won a few gaming awards in the industry, which would seem unlikely if they were blatantly fixing their RNG.
Joined: Dec '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 70 (M)
Posts: 206
as I am aware you can buy 888 shares on the stock exchange, this being the case has it is new to that maybe there should be a section were possible/probable cheating may or may not be prevelant in online gambling within the stock exchange, they do seek out other possible fraudulant activities in all of the companies offering stocks and shares on the exchange
I too get the feeling that something just isnt ticetty boo on 888 and others so I have come to the conclussion that if 888 is bent then so are the other sites too
