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***** Hand History For Game 12628470339 ***** 200/400 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (STT Tournament #78677360) - Mon Feb 4 08:24:20 EST 2013 Table Table Double or Nothing Turbo 4211711 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button Total number of players : 8/10 Seat 1: erru9107 (2910) Seat 2: nyn3emJIu (2870) Seat 3: PKerThang (3630) Seat 4: Vinard88 (660) Seat 6: morty90 (2315) Seat 7: puisoru (2150) Seat 8: jmaria47 (2370) Seat 10: SumracNochi (3095) puisoru posts small blind (200) jmaria47 posts big blind (400) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to erru9107 [ 8c, Ac ] SumracNochi folds erru9107 raises 2910 to 2910 erru9107 is all-In. nyn3emJIu folds PKerThang calls (2910) Vinard88 folds morty90 folds puisoru folds jmaria47 folds ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Js, 5d, Kc ] ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jh ] ** Dealing River ** : [ 4d ] Creating Main Pot with 6420 with erru9107 ** Summary ** Main Pot: 6420 Board: [ Js 5d Kc Jh 4d ] erru9107 balance 0, lost 2910 [ 8c Ac ] [ a pair of jacks -- Ac,Kc,Js,Jh,8c ] nyn3emJIu balance 2870, didn't bet (folded) PKerThang balance 7140, bet 2910, collected 6420, net +3510 [ Kd Ah ] [ two pairs, kings and jacks -- Ah,Kd,Kc,Js,Jh ] Vinard88 balance 660, didn't bet (folded) morty90 balance 2315, didn't bet (folded) puisoru balance 1950, lost 200 (folded) jmaria47 balance 1970, lost 400 (folded) SumracNochi balance 3095, didn't bet (folded)
Why you play all-in on middle position on middle time of play? You had 3rd stack on table, but you act earlier by StackLeader... So - why? A8s is not super card for shove...
Joined: Jan '11
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in my opinion you have to play very tight these type of games
your mistake: going all in preflop without having a premium hand
you don't steal blinds from early/middle position without AA KK or QQ
look how vinard88 played he lost a few chips in first hands and after that he didn't play any hand and he finished in the money. at low limit games u can be sure someone will pay your all in with any pair or suited conectors.
so my advice play DoN's very tight and wait for others to go all in if you are in a bad spot with no big pair in hand.
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Yuo shouldn't have went all in on that Ac8c hand. You were good in chips, there was nothing threatening you, you should have went more calm on that. There were 8 players, you were 3rd on the rank, second to talk, both higher stacks still had a word on that hand, you should have predicted that.
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Posted by SorinelPoker: you don't steal blinds from early/middle position without AA KK or QQ
Thats very wrong advice,you cant just "draw the line" somewhere,there are many factors that can make it very profitable stealing much wider than this from early position. Just because half of the field gets paid doesnt mean you can wait forever,you have to build a stack sometime in the game unless there's 1 person cleaning the whole table or something. You have to pick up chips here and there BEFORE you get to the phase where you fold through.
About the A8s hand,it's a very good shove in a regular SNG,in this scenario it's a close fold but def. not by far as obvious of a fold as proposed here so far.. You have the blinds reaching you AFTER they go up,leaving you with less than 5BB. So it's not bad taking a stab here. After blinds reach you,you lose most of your fold equity. If you do fold through the next 2 orbits then it's gonna be a luck-based game if you either do finish ITM or not,most likely battleing vs. someone for 5th place. If you do get this shove through however,it's gonna increase your future equity by miles and you're pretty certain to get ITM if you take the deadmoney in this hand.
This hand cant really be calculated with SNGWiz or a programm like that because future EV plays a huge roll in this hand,SNGWiz would certainly say it's a -EV shove by a bit,but you have to think outside the box in today's SNG games sometimes
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Posted by BeMyATMplz: About the A8s hand,it's a very good shove in a regular SNG,in this scenario it's a close fold but def. not by far as obvious of a fold as proposed here so far.. You have the blinds reaching you AFTER they go up,leaving you with less than 5BB. So it's not bad taking a stab here. After blinds reach you,you lose most of your fold equity. If you do fold through the next 2 orbits then it's gonna be a luck-based game if you either do finish ITM or not,most likely battleing vs. someone for 5th place. If you do get this shove through however,it's gonna increase your future equity by miles and you're pretty certain to get ITM if you take the deadmoney in this hand.
That's the reason I shoved that hand. I was gonna get the blinds after that hand and if those hands were bad and someone raised I would have to fold leaving me with a minimum stack and a little to non chance of getting ITM. I'd rather go out on a decent hand in 8th then getting eaten up by the blinds due to crappy hands in 6th.
If my reasoning is wrong here, then let me know!
PS. I'll edit the post and only include the vital hands.
Admin: Could you make my first post editable so I can do that?
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Posted by erru9107: That's the reason I shoved that hand. I was gonna get the blinds after that hand and if those hands were bad and someone raised I would have to fold leaving me with a minimum stack and a little to non chance of getting ITM. I'd rather go out on a decent hand in 8th then getting eaten up by the blinds due to crappy hands in 6th.
If my reasoning is wrong here, then let me know!
Your reasoning is totally right,however you have to assume it will often go that way in DoNs,I think with the reasoning by you I dont know if they are the right game for you,your reasoning fits very good for SNGs with a usual,top heavy payout structure but in DoNs you'll often get "eaten up" by blinds. Maybe consider playing the fifty-fifties on Stars? They are similar to the DoN format but you would get rewarded for future-EV-play and thinking like this,I could imagine they are a much better format for you than the simple DoNs
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Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by erru9107: That's the reason I shoved that hand. I was gonna get the blinds after that hand and if those hands were bad and someone raised I would have to fold leaving me with a minimum stack and a little to non chance of getting ITM. I'd rather go out on a decent hand in 8th then getting eaten up by the blinds due to crappy hands in 6th.
If my reasoning is wrong here, then let me know!
Your reasoning is totally right,however you have to assume it will often go that way in DoNs,I think with the reasoning by you I dont know if they are the right game for you,your reasoning fits very good for SNGs with a usual,top heavy payout structure but in DoNs you'll often get "eaten up" by blinds. Maybe consider playing the fifty-fifties on Stars? They are similar to the DoN format but you would get rewarded for future-EV-play and thinking like this,I could imagine they are a much better format for you than the simple DoNs
Well, the thing is that I've tried regular SnG's and for some reason, I very rarely place in the paid positions. I mostly end up in 4th or 5th so obviously I'm doing something wrong. That's why I thought that I might get more out of the DoN's then regular SnG's.
Joined: Jan '11
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Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by SorinelPoker: you don't steal blinds from early/middle position without AA KK or QQ
Thats very wrong advice,you cant just "draw the line" somewhere,there are many factors that can make it very profitable stealing much wider than this from early position. Just because half of the field gets paid doesnt mean you can wait forever,you have to build a stack sometime in the game unless there's 1 person cleaning the whole table or something. You have to pick up chips here and there BEFORE you get to the phase where you fold through.
About the A8s hand,it's a very good shove in a regular SNG,in this scenario it's a close fold but def. not by far as obvious of a fold as proposed here so far.. You have the blinds reaching you AFTER they go up,leaving you with less than 5BB. So it's not bad taking a stab here. After blinds reach you,you lose most of your fold equity. If you do fold through the next 2 orbits then it's gonna be a luck-based game if you either do finish ITM or not,most likely battleing vs. someone for 5th place. If you do get this shove through however,it's gonna increase your future equity by miles and you're pretty certain to get ITM if you take the deadmoney in this hand.
This hand cant really be calculated with SNGWiz or a programm like that because future EV plays a huge roll in this hand,SNGWiz would certainly say it's a -EV shove by a bit,but you have to think outside the box in today's SNG games sometimes
You are right and not
My opinion is based on 0.40$ entry, where u can be paid with any card and loose even with AA. So i say (but i don't do, i tend to be very loose) is better to be very tight at low limits SNG's or DoN's you have to play and observe a lot more and with time you can play more loose, but you need to understand what players you have at tables before taking risky actions.
Joined: Mar '09
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Havent played many DoNs, but from the games i have played, i saw that you need to adjust your game depending on the players. Sometimes you can finish itm by just folding each hand and let others do the job for you. Some others though, you need to take the initiation and build a stack permitting you more folds. And at some point shoving with any A while you try to built isnt bad move at all.
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Posted by SorinelPoker: You are right and not
My opinion is based on 0.40$ entry, where u can be paid with any card and loose even with AA. So i say (but i don't do, i tend to be very loose) is better to be very tight at low limits SNG's or DoN's you have to play and observe a lot more and with time you can play more loose, but you need to understand what players you have at tables before taking risky actions.
You can lose with any hand in any buy in,any format etc. It doesnt matter if this is a $0.40 or a $500 SNG,it evens out. In a $500 DoN you will often take the deadmoney because all except the 1-2 fishes seating that game will know correct calling ranges and will only call with a 3-4% range to the shove (if not even tighter,I dont know what the correct calling range to the shove would be off top of my head),so you often end up taking the deadmoney which should be the objective with our shove here. In a $0.40 DoN you might have a very clueless donk calling us with alot worse hands than ours. This wouldnt be the optimal outcome as we dont wanna be called based on ICM,but it would secure a win if we win the hand,so not too bad of an outcome too,although it would be an ICM-disaster if we get called even by KQ here,you always have to include the future-play in your thinking too,ICM does only tell you if the specific play in that hand is profitable,not taking the future into consideration. Also,there seems to be no one out-of-line here so that "clueless donk scenario" shouldnt come up here. Anyways I checked it in SNGwiz. I used a 4% calling range for everyone out of the blinds,a 5% calling range for both the blinds and a 10% range for the shorty with 660 chips. The ranges may vary but that's what I'd assume should be okay as some people bad players are also too tight in such spots,not always too loose. At 200/400 blinds the range should be JJ+/AK/AQs+ Howevermthis is where thinking out of the box comes in,the hand after the blinds will go up to 300/600,meaning the blinds will reach us @ that stage eating 1/3 of our stack. The range for 300/600 we should be shoving: TT+/A10+/A3s-A5s+/A7s+/KQ/K10s+/QJs.
I think the true range you should be shoving is something inbetween the two ranges,that would be a range that considers both,the ICM and also the future equity you have if getting the shove through/the future equity if you just fold.
I'm not saying the A8s shove is +EV,it isnt,but it is also in no means as bad as some are saying it is
Posted by erru9107: Well, the thing is that I've tried regular SnG's and for some reason, I very rarely place in the paid positions. I mostly end up in 4th or 5th so obviously I'm doing something wrong. That's why I thought that I might get more out of the DoN's then regular SnG's.
Ending up in 5th alot is actually not too bad. The reason for many 4th finishes might be you either play too tight before that,or you play the bubble too aggressivly. I gues it's probably you play everything before it too passivly. You should be the one chipping up regulary to have a solid stack at the bubble to abuse others and to be able to fold to some steals comfortably still having a stack. Thats why good players usually have a finish distribution that has many 5ths and 6ths in 9/10 player SNGs,because thats when they try to chip up for the phase where it matters to have a good stack. Building a stack on the bubble when being short requires luck because you have to double up through showdowns. If you however have a good stack at the bubble you can keep chipping up by simple stealing,not having to get to showdowns. A good player with good ROI has a finishing distribution of mostly 1sts/3rds/5ths/6ths,either they bust before the bubble of they accumulate a good stack being able to either abuse the bubble to have a massivle chiplead to easily take 1st,or they have a good enough stack to just survive the bubble,but the phase with 4 left shouldnt be the phase you try to chip up at unless you have a good stack to abuse others
Over how many SNGs did you try the normal STTs? Maybe it's just a too small sample to judge as well
Edited by BeMyATMplz (04 February 2013 @ 20:39 GMT)
Joined: Oct '11
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Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by erru9107: Well, the thing is that I've tried regular SnG's and for some reason, I very rarely place in the paid positions. I mostly end up in 4th or 5th so obviously I'm doing something wrong. That's why I thought that I might get more out of the DoN's then regular SnG's.
Ending up in 5th alot is actually not too bad. The reason for many 4th finishes might be you either play too tight before that,or you play the bubble too aggressivly. I gues it's probably you play everything before it too passivly. You should be the one chipping up regulary to have a solid stack at the bubble to abuse others and to be able to fold to some steals comfortably still having a stack. Thats why good players usually have a finish distribution that has many 5ths and 6ths in 9/10 player SNGs,because thats when they try to chip up for the phase where it matters to have a good stack. Building a stack on the bubble when being short requires luck because you have to double up through showdowns. If you however have a good stack at the bubble you can keep chipping up by simple stealing,not having to get to showdowns. A good player with good ROI has a finishing distribution of mostly 1sts/3rds/5ths/6ths,either they bust before the bubble of they accumulate a good stack being able to either abuse the bubble to have a massivle chiplead to easily take 1st,or they have a good enough stack to just survive the bubble,but the phase with 4 left shouldnt be the phase you try to chip up at unless you have a good stack to abuse others
Over how many SNGs did you try the normal STTs? Maybe it's just a too small sample to judge as well
I'm not entirely sure how many I played. It was back in the days when I played at Svenska Spel (a swedish site) but it was well over 100 at least. I think I lost about $30 playing the $1 SnG's. After I lost that much there I went over to MTT's/Cash and won back what I had lost and then some.
I like the SnG/DoN SnG concepts but after determining that I just didn't make anything from playing them, I moved on.
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Posted by pochui: what did u do wrong dunno, maybe posted too short hand history...not enough info to help u out
I'm going to fix that later today to not include dead hands, just have the vital ones.
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Posted by erru9107: I'm not entirely sure how many I played. It was back in the days when I played at Svenska Spel (a swedish site) but it was well over 100 at least. I think I lost about $30 playing the $1 SnG's. After I lost that much there I went over to MTT's/Cash and won back what I had lost and then some.
I like the SnG/DoN SnG concepts but after determining that I just didn't make anything from playing them, I moved on.
~100 SNGs is BY FAR not enough to determine where you stand! It shouldnt be anything less than at least 1000 SNGs before you can take any tendency for winrate or finishing ditribution,and even then with 1000 SNGs it can still shift alot to one way or the other. Hell,I had a breakeven phase at the $3.50 SNGs on stars over almost 2500 SNGs recently and I'm one of the top regs at that limit,so you really shouldnt worry about a 100 games sample,I play more than that on a normal grinding day and I'm sure at least 1/3 of my grind-days are losing days,so it can happen to everyone Poker is really a game of the longterm,you shouldnt base your abilities on shortterm results,only the longterm results count. What you make in a very short period of time is not important at all,because the results of a short period can shift to any direction and you cant affect that result,over 100 SNGs for example even the best SNG player on this planet can lose at $1 SNGs if he runs bad You can however affect the result you have over 5000 SNGs for example. 5000 SNGs is a strong enough sample to both get a certain idea of your ROI (it can still shift by up to 2% or so afterwards but the game evolves so much lately,you can never be 100% sure what your true ROI is anyways),and if you're winning player over 5000 SNGs you can be sure to be profitable at that specific game/buy in.
SNGs are really a game where you can easily print money with decent grinding skills and the right dedication to learn the game,but it takes some time and work to learn correct ranges in certain spots because so many spots are different to each other,its nearly impossible to have a fully perfect SNG game,but the players with the more advanced concepts (not just simple push-folding,thats just 2008 style) usually have the higher ROIs in the game too and dominate both the fish AND the ABC regs
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Posted by remco2504: You are a winning poker player so why do you need help from mostly losing players. How did you ever reach 7.5 K in winnings last year ???
If you win 100 dollars and proof it ill be impressed...
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Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by remco2504: You are a winning poker player so why do you need help from mostly losing players. How did you ever reach 7.5 K in winnings last year ???
If you win 100 dollars and proof it ill be impressed...
What
Well he claimed to have a poker winnings account and he paid out 7.500 last year. Now he's back opening threads about micro sng's or mtt's or micro cash games and also opening a thread about his winnings where he wins or loses very little money.
I mean who believes he is that good of a player winning so much and still playing with nickles. That just doesnt ad up no matter what he says..
Joined: Feb '11
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Posted by remco2504: Well he claimed to have a poker winnings account and he paid out 7.500 last year. Now he's back opening threads about micro sng's or mtt's or micro cash games and also opening a thread about his winnings where he wins or loses very little money.
I mean who believes he is that good of a player winning so much and still playing with nickles. That just doesnt ad up no matter what he says..
ooooh alright then,I thought you were talking to me because I made approx. that amount last year Yeah I dont think someone who made $7.5K last year would be playing $0.50 DoNs. Then again I have 25K in overall profits and play mainly $3.50 SNGs atm,it depends what your most profitable game is giving you the best winrate you can get
dunno, maybe posted too short 
last year.
