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  18-Feb-13, 23:39   #1
Need some help with that Hand 0 
Hiesy 
Joined: Jul '11
Location: Germany
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 106
My screen Name is Blackhawkdo

Seat 1: BingoFriedel62 ( 2,415 )
Seat 4: Blackhawkdo ( 1,497 )
Seat 2: El_Visitante ( 12,934 )
Seat 10: MarkyRamone. ( 10,935 )
Seat 7: c00LDragon ( 2,925 )
Seat 8: campeones12 ( 6,492 )
Seat 5: deRIVERance ( 3,320 )
Seat 3: dokdoisROK ( 1,480 )
Seat 6: rammygoal22 ( 5,766 )
Seat 9: yzw42 ( 16,832 )
Trny:79272232 Level:7
Blinds-Antes(100/200 -20)
BingoFriedel62 posts ante [20]
El_Visitante posts ante [20]
dokdoisROK posts ante [20]
Blackhawkdo posts ante [20]
deRIVERance posts ante [20]
rammygoal22 posts ante [20]
c00LDragon posts ante [20]
campeones12 posts ante [20]
yzw42 posts ante [20]
MarkyRamone. posts ante [20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Blackhawkdo [ Qs Ah ]
yzw42 folds
MarkyRamone. folds
BingoFriedel62 folds
El_Visitante folds
dokdoisROK folds
Blackhawkdo raises [600]
deRIVERance calls [600]
rammygoal22 folds
c00LDragon folds
campeones12 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 9d, 3d ]
Blackhawkdo is all-In [877]
deRIVERance calls [877]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
Blackhawkdo shows [ Qs, Ah ]two pairs, Aces and Queens.
deRIVERance shows [ 5c, 5s ]a pair of Fives.
Blackhawkdo wins 3,454 chips from the main pot with two pairs, Aces and Queens

After that Hand i had a little Conversation with the player who lost the Hand against me. He said it was a really donkish play from me. For me it was a normal move (ok i was out of position so it was risky). But it was a really dry board where lots of preflop callers dont hit anything. And he also said i should have gone all-in preflop instead on that Flop.
What you think about that Hand? Should i have gone All-in Pre-flop or what should i have done?

     
  18-Feb-13, 23:48   #2
  +1 
AlexSimion 
Joined: Mar '12
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 640
considering you only had 8 bb left , you should've went all-in pre flop , no point raising 3 bb , because you were pot comitted , but you let someone see that flop at a low cost , and you got lucky after going all in on that flop Smile

     
  19-Feb-13, 03:25   #3
  0 
Jibberish 

Joined: May '11
Location: Canada
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 979
Posted by AlexSimion:
considering you only had 8 bb left , you should've went all-in pre flop , no point raising 3 bb , because you were pot comitted , but you let someone see that flop at a low cost , and you got lucky after going all in on that flop Smile


^^ +1

     
  19-Feb-13, 10:29   #4
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1477
Posted by AlexSimion:
considering you only had 8 bb left , you should've went all-in pre flop , no point raising 3 bb , because you were pot comitted , but you let someone see that flop at a low cost , and you got lucky after going all in on that flop Smile


I also agree with this tactic, just conservative style Hiesy. Do you read poker book or poker strategy
from poker site ? Anyway, his call also not good play for me, little chance to win

     
  19-Feb-13, 14:33   #5
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
I understand the other guy’s opinion: you were too short to enter with only half of your stack. But he also did wrong in not putting you all-in pre-flop, big mistake from him. Then, after the flop, you knew what you would be getting and you happen to have the luck on your side. Write play would be all-in pre-flop, taking in consideration the stacks of your opponents.

     
  19-Feb-13, 15:23   #6
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
I dont mind the 3x preflop,it creaqtes less fold equity than a shove might,and you dont want the people behind you to fold here,you want them to call with their weaker range.
If your stack goes in either way then why not try to get your chips in vs. a weaker range than you'd do vs. a shove?
His 55 call on the other hand shoould be a close fold,he should treat the 3x raise as a shove because you're pot commited anyways,and in this case my range for doing anything but foldingin his spot would be 66/77 unless I know the person raising is good and does it with a wide range,then 55 if justifyable.
As for the flop play,standard by both

     
  19-Feb-13, 15:54   #7
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
All in pre flop......i rather all in with AQ pre flop in this situation rather than pushing with a dry board...anyway, the important thing is to win the hand...so any move that you as long as you win the hand is almost al good...cheers...

     
  19-Feb-13, 18:21   #8
  0 
rafiko1 

Joined: May '12
Location: Belgium
Age: 24 (M)
Posts: 275
My opinion is that you both haven't played the hand so well.
As other guys said, you had to shove there.
Anyhow, since u raised 600, other player with 55 has 2 option - either go all in or fold pre-flop.
There is no point by just calling, since he can't put u on a hand. You could have easily pairs like 88, 77 etc. or maybe big pairs.
If i was him I would have probably folded the hand pre-flop.
GL! Smile

     
  20-Feb-13, 01:37   #9
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
I dont mind the 3x preflop,it creaqtes less fold equity than a shove might,


Uhhh, huh? Are you serious? 8xbb left, and you advocate raising UTG vs shoving? With antes and blinds and >15bb, this is NEVER anything but a shove. Why give people a chance to call, when you can force them out and get less callers/or possibly get everyone to fold. It's called fold equity, which by definition means you WANT people to fold not call. The profit you gain from a shove isn't just from the times you get someone to call and flip where you're ahead, but also from all the other times everyone folds and you gain chips. That right there is why you should ONLY be shoving as it makes your advantage two-fold.

Posted by BeMyATMplz:
and you dont want the people behind you to fold here,you want them to call with their weaker range.
Given the antes and blinds, if we raise instead of shoving, every person left to act is getting great odds to call, even moreso if there's more than 1 limper. AQo isn't pocket aces, we still have to catch something against any PP etc that's calling to see a flop. Make them pay full admission if they want to see a flop.

Posted by BeMyATMplz:
If your stack goes in either way then why not try to get your chips in vs. a weaker range than you'd do vs. a shove?
Again, given the pot size before heros action, I don't think there's going to be much of a gap between someones calling a 3x raise vs a 8x shove, and again factor in that if someone calls, the people behind them are getting better odds to call too.

Posted by BeMyATMplz:
His 55 call on the other hand shoould be a close fold,he should treat the 3x raise as a shove because you're pot commited anyways,
This is the only part of what you said that I agree with.


Posted by BeMyATMplz:
and in this case my range for doing anything but foldingin his spot would be 66/77 unless I know the person raising is good and does it with a wide range,then 55 if justifyable.
I somewhat agree with this if we're LP or closing the action, but with people behind us, I might tighten that just a bit to 88+.

Edited by retribution (Wednesday, February 20, 2013 @ 01:41 GMT)


     
  20-Feb-13, 02:13   #10
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
There's 500 deadmoney to be gained by getting everyone to fold.
If we do get a caller and double up we can gain 2K chips (roughly 1.5K by our stack + 500 deadmoney).
AQ vs. a range (I used the average range the calculator uses for a range that has 55 as it's bottom,I'm sure if he does this with 55 he also does this with 22 as well so it's still on the tight end,since this is a weak field we should get an even wider range) we are roughly 65/35 vs. the range.
Means in 6.5/10 cases we win 2K each and in 3.5 other cases we lose 1.5K.
That makes a profit of 7.75K so 775 chips to be gained on average per scenario.
It might be less sometimes if he's bad enough to still fold to our flop-shove but we shouldnt expect much FE and even if there is any FE it's not as much to make this less profitable than the straight shove.
So why would we want to create FE preflop here?
I'm not saying shoving is wrong,it's absolutely correct and ingame I'd shove too,but people here saying 3x is so bad and a mistake is wrong and just refering to why we dont want FE here,we infact want action as its max. EV


And no,vs. a good player in villains spot 88+ is too nitty because a good player will shove at the very least 50% in HJ here.

And your statement about ">15BB must be a shove" is also wrong.. thats so ABC.. and you can ask any SNG player that is thinking outside the box about that (I mean,any good SNG player that isnt just playing plain robotic push/fold play with unexploitable ranges,thats just oldschool and no player still playing that style will ever beat midstakes in todays games and will even stuggle beating lowstakes for decent ROI pre rakeback).. there cant be drawn a line just somewhere because every spot is so different,there are situations where you can profitably raise/fold 8BBs even in ICM situations,and especially in cEV situations because the only factor that matters is you losing some FE but that isnt to be taken into account in calculations
Your rule applies for someone playing a "+EV" game,however in todays game you have to hunt for "max. EV" unless you want to be a marginal winner at most.

Edited by BeMyATMplz (Wednesday, February 20, 2013 @ 02:23 GMT)


     
  20-Feb-13, 03:20   #11
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
There's 500 deadmoney to be gained by getting everyone to fold.
If we do get a caller and double up we can gain 2K chips (roughly 1.5K by our stack + 500 deadmoney).
AQ vs. a range (I used the average range the calculator uses for a range that has 55 as it's bottom,I'm sure if he does this with 55 he also does this with 22 as well so it's still on the tight end,since this is a weak field we should get an even wider range) we are roughly 65/35 vs. the range.
Means in 6.5/10 cases we win 2K each and in 3.5 other cases we lose 1.5K.
That makes a profit of 7.75K so 775 chips to be gained on average per scenario.
It might be less sometimes if he's bad enough to still fold to our flop-shove but we shouldnt expect much FE and even if there is any FE it's not as much to make this less profitable than the straight shove.
So why would we want to create FE preflop here?
I'm not saying shoving is wrong,it's absolutely correct and ingame I'd shove too,but people here saying 3x is so bad and a mistake is wrong and just refering to why we dont want FE here,we infact want action as its max. EV


And no,vs. a good player in villains spot 88+ is too nitty because a good player will shove at the very least 50% in HJ here.

And your statement about ">15BB must be a shove" is also wrong.. thats so ABC.. and you can ask any SNG player that is thinking outside the box about that (I mean,any good SNG player that isnt just playing plain robotic push/fold play with unexploitable ranges,thats just oldschool and no player still playing that style will ever beat midstakes in todays games and will even stuggle beating lowstakes for decent ROI pre rakeback).. there cant be drawn a line just somewhere because every spot is so different,there are situations where you can profitably raise/fold 8BBs even in ICM situations,and especially in cEV situations because the only factor that matters is you losing some FE but that isnt to be taken into account in calculations
Your rule applies for someone playing a "+EV" game,however in todays game you have to hunt for "max. EV" unless you want to be a marginal winner at most.



No offense, but letting people limp in an inflated pot ISNT'T going to get you ANY fold equity. We WANT that dead money. We DON'T want to flip if we don't have to, we 100% of the time people to fold because that automatically gets us an extra almost 4BB.

Think of it this way, we shove 8bb, and stand to gain 4 if everyone folds with NO risk. IF someone calls, we're risking 8bb to win 12bb (their 8 plus the dead money) but we're also at risk of bubbling. So essentially we only calculate the 8bb we gain from them calling.Even if we're 50% to win, we'll still gain in the long run. If we're ahead around 70% of the time they call, we've got 70% equity of 8bb or around 5.6bb.

That's ONLY if we shove and get 1 caller.

Now if we 3x, we're essentially still risking our stack whole stack(since we're committed anyways) to only gain 3bb (that is if they are stupid enough to shutdown on the flop if they miss or it's an ugly flop). This gives THEM the option of deciding if they give us their other 5bb.

So 70% of 3bb is what 2.1bb + dead money = 6.1 BB while putting our 8bb at risk. Plus we give our opponent the advantage of playing fit or fold. So instead of risking 8 and gaining 12, we're risking 8 and gaining 6.1. This is why shoving is really your only option.

Now if we make it 2 or more callers, our odds go down AND we're giving good implied odds to anyone who wants to limp along.

As for your comment about >15bb not being an autoshove, well of course there's scenarios where that's not always the case, but if we gain an unexploitable edge by shoving, why WOULDN'T we take it? The goal of poker is to force your opponents to make mistakes, and in this case they can make a mistake by either calling too light or too tight.

Edited by retribution (Wednesday, February 20, 2013 @ 03:26 GMT)


     
  20-Feb-13, 03:46   #12
  0 
Jibberish 

Joined: May '11
Location: Canada
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 979
it looks like he was playing a MTT or a super tight SnG.. if he was playing a MTT you definately want that a call so you can double up and have room to move, your shootin for 1st not a min cash.

and if it was a SnG then meh fuggit i dunno i dont play those.

also he never meantioned anything about bubbles/game type/etc. so they best we can do is assume here. im pretty positive hes playing a MTT and is no where near the bubble yet either.

in either case id probably shove because i want a flip because anyone with any type of semi decent hand is likely to call you, anywhere from 22+ KJ JQ and weak aces if you have an aggressive table, remember people WANT to knock you out, you will most likely get called by worse.

     
  20-Feb-13, 03:58   #13
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
And thus my point is made. By shoving, we make them risk their entire 8bb, as opposed to giving them a chance to see a flop cheap with an inflated pot giving them and people behind good implied odds.

The more I think about this, the more I'm 100% convinced 3x'ing is absolutely horrible.

     
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