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  9-Mar-13, 14:02   #1
Are cash games way too expensive? 0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Full Tilt gave me a $20 ring game ticket about 2.5 months ago, for pairing my PokerStarts account. Just today I completed the playthrough of 500 FTPs on it. I never played cash before (just played freerolls on Party until now), so it was pretty hard going for a while, bankroll managing $20 (I've been as low as $3 at one point).

I had about $17.50 left on the ticket, on completion, and made about $14.50 profit on top (I also made about $22 in first deposit bonus and cashback), which I'm satisfied with. My roll is now up to $175, of which $100 came from cashing out my mobpoints (thanks BRM!), and $16 of my own money for the first deposit.

However, I made 500 FTP, which means the site earned $50 in rake from me, while I only made $14.50 (if you exclude bonusses and cashback).

Is this not excessively expensive, when compared to MTTs? For $50 in fees, I can play $500 worth of MTTs. You only have to do 3% better than the rest of field to make the same amount of money...

What do you think?

Attached Imagessshot-559.png

     
  9-Mar-13, 14:11   #2
  0 
Weenie 
Joined: Aug '12
Location: Slovakia
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 679
depends on how succesfull you are in cashgame. You can win much more money faster, same as you can lose them Smile

I made around 40dollars profit from that ticket and I didnt even completed 500points, only around 300, then lost ticket in 4 suckout hands Smile

     
  9-Mar-13, 14:12   #3
  0 
Zen1004 
Joined: Apr '12
Location: Korea, Republic of
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 244
not sure what you mean by doing 3% better than the field to make the same amount of money since MTT's only pay out the top 20% at best.

However, if you think MTT's are a better value than cash games just stop playing cash games.

     
  9-Mar-13, 15:03   #4
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by Weenie:
I made around 40dollars profit from that ticket and I didnt even completed 500points, only around 300, then lost ticket in 4 suckout hands Smile

I doubt there are many players that played through the 500 FTPs. It was okay for me since I'm still learning to play cash, and was satisfied playing shortstack tables 6-max (with a maximum buyin of $0.80, just 25 buyins, which is proper in bankroll management terms).

I also won a $5 and a $10 ringgame ticket in some EDGE freerolls. I very much doubt it's viable making the playthrough requirements on those...
Posted by Zen1004:
not sure what you mean by doing 3% better than the field to make the same amount of money since MTT's only pay out the top 20% at best.

However, if you think MTT's are a better value than cash games just stop playing cash games.

I might, but I've only just started... Blink

What I meant is that you only need to run 3% better than neutral EV to make $15 of $500, but I made a mistake, because of the $50 fee; it's actually 13% over neutral EV...

Maybe its a wash between cash games and MTTs? I don't know; that's why I asked...

     
  9-Mar-13, 16:22   #5
  0 
Weenie 
Joined: Aug '12
Location: Slovakia
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 679
Posted by marqis:
[QUOTE]Posted by Weenie:

I doubt there are many players that played through the 500 FTPs. It was okay for me since I'm still learning to play cash, and was satisfied playing shortstack tables 6-max (with a maximum buyin of $0.80, just 25 buyins, which is proper in bankroll management terms).


Yea I played risky on rushpoker at 0.02/0.05 and 0.05/0.10 tables, I ignored bankroll management and I paid a prize for that by losing ticket. Thanks god that suckouts came later and not at beginning and I was able to make that 40 bucks Smile

     
  9-Mar-13, 16:26   #6
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
Cash games aren't expensive. One should only play them when ready for the challenge. They are very different from SnG's or MTT's. They are a challenge in terms of time. If one just wants to double the initial money will play one way, if the objective is to play a longer session, so that will imply another type of game. In both, patiente is the key. I realized that, by the way i play them, the best in cash games, for me, is to make frequent player points. Usually i don't win much money playing cash, i always keep on mine or lose it, unless i play for longer time, that way i will definitely win points, that are always useful too.

     
  9-Mar-13, 16:43   #7
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
Every player decide what he is good at and play that type of game...

I'm a losing player on tournaments so that why i only play cash, the good think is that i have a really good winning rate on cash Smile

     
  9-Mar-13, 17:13   #8
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
I thiink its just the same with tournamants or SNG but with cash games....you win fast and you lost fast....if your a good in cash game so it wouldnt be that expensive if your winning.....

     
  9-Mar-13, 19:05   #9
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4867
Marqis..... I take your point about you getting $14 while the rake to FTP is $50, however you started off with their own $20 so overall they win by only 2 to 1....and if you had done better you could have beaten them. All of this is their own and not yours in the first place...if you played the token right!

     
  9-Mar-13, 20:01   #10
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by damosk:
Marqis..... I take your point about you getting $14 while the rake to FTP is $50, however you started off with their own $20 so overall they win by only 2 to 1....and if you had done better you could have beaten them. All of this is their own and not yours in the first place...if you played the token right!

Reading your reply, the thought occurs to me I might have come across ungrateful. In fact I applaud Full Tilt for this promotion, since it gave me a risk free try at cash games. Very nice...

My winnings from this ticket are $17.50 (left on the ticket) + $14.50 (profit from playing) + $22 (clearing first deposit bonus while playing the ticket + cashback) = $54

In addition I've received well over 1000 FTP (still have about 750 left).

So I actually did beat the site in terms of earnings from the ticket; they made $50 off me, but spent $20 on me in the form of the ticket and $22 bonus + cashback.

So they got only $8, and I got $54; I actually beat them by 6.75 to 1

I'm definitely not complaining!

It's just without all the gifts and bonuses (and they won't be there forever), $50 seems like a lot of rake for winning $14.50 while maintaining a 4.5 bb/100 win rate.

I can probably still improve upon my win rate though, since it shot up to over 15 bb/100 in February and March (while reading "Harrington on online holdem 6 max" twice).

     
  9-Mar-13, 20:56   #11
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
You said you also got a bonus from deposit.
You were able to clear both bonuses at once, or they were queued and you cleared
the second after finishing the first?
Well done on you profit. gl with your next games.

     
  9-Mar-13, 21:30   #12
  +1 
Samtoace 

Joined: Sep '12
Location: Netherlands
Age: 57 (M)
Posts: 335

Are cash games way too expensive?

No.

Dollar

     
  9-Mar-13, 22:01   #13
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by Mober:
You said you also got a bonus from deposit.
You were able to clear both bonuses at once, or they were queued and you cleared
the second after finishing the first?
Well done on you profit. gl with your next games.

Thanks! The 500 FTPs for clearing the ticket, also counted towards clearing the first deposit bonus, which was very nice. I knew about that before I started, because I asked support about it. It surprised me too...

Also I played only during happy hours, so I received over 1000 FTPs in total, but those extra 500 happy hour points did not count towards either bonus.

All in all, it was a very effective promotion, converting me from a PartyPoker freeroll leech, to a Full Tilt micro stakes cashgame player (and freeroll leech)...

     
  9-Mar-13, 23:44   #14
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
People seriously underestimate how damaging rake is to your profit. MTT players probably have the best margin, but for SNG or Cash grinders, rake will often be far more than your profit.. which is why a good RakeBack deal is essential.. A lot of grinders "make" more from their rakeback than they do pre-rakeback.


And yes, I do think rake is too expensive, the game is damn-near unbeatable. We'd have a lot less rigtards moaning on the forum, that is for sure, if rake was significantly lowered.

------------
I made a thread a couple years back regarding rake actually:

http://www.bankrollmob.com/forum.asp?mode=thread&id...

I used SNGs to illustrate my point, but the same stands for ring games.

     
  10-Mar-13, 00:15   #15
  0 
rbdflyboy 

Joined: Apr '11
Location: Canada
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1222
Posted by jessthehuman:
People seriously underestimate how damaging rake is to your profit. MTT players probably have the best margin, but for SNG or Cash grinders, rake will often be far more than your profit.. which is why a good RakeBack deal is essential.. A lot of grinders "make" more from their rakeback than they do pre-rakeback.


And yes, I do think rake is too expensive, the game is damn-near unbeatable. We'd have a lot less rigtards moaning on the forum, that is for sure, if rake was significantly lowered.

------------
I made a thread a couple years back regarding rake actually:

http://www.bankrollmob.com/forum.asp?mode=thread&id...

I used SNGs to illustrate my point, but the same stands for ring games.


This Thumbs Up...and...just becoz it's mathematically correct to bet does not mean the outcome can not be unexpected. Smile

     
  10-Mar-13, 07:58   #16
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
Posted by jessthehuman:
People seriously underestimate how damaging rake is to your profit. MTT players probably have the best margin, but for SNG or Cash grinders, rake will often be far more than your profit.. which is why a good RakeBack deal is essential.. A lot of grinders "make" more from their rakeback than they do pre-rakeback.

And yes, I do think rake is too expensive, the game is damn-near unbeatable. We'd have a lot less rigtards moaning on the forum, that is for sure, if rake was significantly lowered.

+1. oh and yeah the lowest rake u get is for mtt's- especially if you play rebuy ones, cause every rebuy u make is not raked at all- it inflates the prize-pool & deflates the overall rake imo

     
  10-Mar-13, 08:04   #17
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by pochui:
Posted by jessthehuman:
People seriously underestimate how damaging rake is to your profit. MTT players probably have the best margin, but for SNG or Cash grinders, rake will often be far more than your profit.. which is why a good RakeBack deal is essential.. A lot of grinders "make" more from their rakeback than they do pre-rakeback.

And yes, I do think rake is too expensive, the game is damn-near unbeatable. We'd have a lot less rigtards moaning on the forum, that is for sure, if rake was significantly lowered.

+1. oh and yeah the lowest rake u get is for mtt's- especially if you play rebuy ones, cause every rebuy u make is not raked at all- it inflates the prize-pool & deflates the overall rake imo



lol PKR rake the rebuys

     
  10-Mar-13, 08:11   #18
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
Posted by jessthehuman:
lol PKR rake the rebuys

that's total crap, dunno about others but stars don't, so this is makes it a viable alternative to lower the rake without getting to any platinum or melon level at all

     
  10-Mar-13, 08:20   #19
  0 
pokershark74 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 831
Posted by marqis:


Maybe its a wash between cash games and MTTs? I don't know; that's why I asked...


online poker for ya mate lmfao if i could afford it id stick to live Sleepy nicely done with clearly the 500 points Thumbs Up

------------
Posted by marqis:



It's just without all the gifts and bonuses (and they won't be there forever), $50 seems like a lot of rake for winning $14.50 while maintaining a 4.5 bb/100 win rate.


it does seem like the 50 to 14.50 is askew think about what i call MPTH (Money Passed Threw Hand) so if you try to think about all the money that went threw your account threw the process of earning 500 points it makes sence (online you dont think about it as much as live when you actually see the money come and go but it is good to keep in mind when it comes to rake)


------------
Posted by jessthehuman:

lol PKR rake the rebuys



ofcourse! how else are they gonna pay there cast and crew for the 3-D view Thumbs Up that was a kick ass post about rake back then too got a lot of good enough when ya posted that one mate Worship

Edited by pokershark74 (Sunday, March 10, 2013 @ 08:37 GMT)


     
  10-Mar-13, 17:02   #20
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
I totally agree on rake, in fact i remind back in the day i had the 27% rakeback deal on full tilt poker that cash that you recieved friday for the week meant many times the difference between a losing week and a profitable week!

Know for those that play at higher limits the VIP system is better but for beginner the 27% rakeback deal was much, much better.

     
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