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  21-Mar-13, 01:30   #1
Is It Collusion... 0 
demodawggy 

Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 5682
...if only YOU and one other person is playing at a 'tournament' table full of sitter's-out,...and you agree to alternate folds to LOAD RIGHT UP with chips? Everyone else, by sitting out, has CHOSEN to lose,....so if you agree with the sole other player,...you're really NOT conspiring against anyone else... are you?


It's always a BLAST when you are the ONLY player NOT sitting out at a table. You just raise every hand, and the chips stack up.... It's happened to me about 5 or 6 times,...but every now and then, you find yourself at a table with only one other player not sitting out.

So I ask them if they'd like to alternate folding,...and if they speak English,....they usually agree. If they don't speak English, or have chat blocked,...it's frustrating that you can't get through to them and profit big time...

I had one guy once tell me he wouldn't because that was cheating.... I had about 3 times his stack,...so I just knocked him out. The next guy who came along agreed,...and we sat there for about 20 minutes just RAKING in the chips... Big Smile


This can only happen at freeroll tables, as paying players tend not to sit out.

It happens MOSTly at Hubble Freerolls on PS. If the blinds are big,...you can get enough chips for a ticket in VERY short order... Big Smile

Anybody ever find themselves in this situation...?

     
  21-Mar-13, 01:56   #2
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Yes it is cheating and you probably can get banned for it. But as they are freerolls you probably will get away with it.

Personally, I have been in this situation but I would not fold every other hand, simply because I would not want to fold AA if I had to, because I would prefer to play poker than top up chips in a freeroll, because I would rather get knocked out than be petty and boring, conspiring with others to share chips.

I have also been at a final table 5 players left where two players have been disconnected and really you want to speed up the action so you can blind these sit outs out before they get back, in fact I was secretly willing the other two players to hurry up but they seemed to be half asleep, but to say anything in chat or intentionally split the chips equally would be nothing short of wrong so I didn't say anything.

     
  21-Mar-13, 02:02   #3
  0 
arrow-knee- 

Joined: Jul '12
Location: Netherlands
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 560
jah happend to me a few tmes i just try to keep eating the oneperson who isin till another sitting out joins xD

     
  21-Mar-13, 06:47   #4
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
I don't think it is particularly unethical, but it is definitely cheating, 100% collusion.

     
  21-Mar-13, 09:04   #5
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
I used to do this too, not thinking it was collusion, but when I realized that it was I stopped. The site can easily seize your roll and ban you for doing this so def. not worth it.

     
  21-Mar-13, 09:12   #6
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
just as mahdrof is was doing this a lot back in the days. most often it was freerolls so no bothered to report me, and even if they did- i doubt any site would take drastic action against me, probably just a warning would be my punishment. technically it is collusion. practically it's just a good use of situation.

     
  21-Mar-13, 10:03   #7
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by pochui:
technically it is collusion. practically it's just a good use of situation.


It's kind of like 'checking down the board' when somebody is allin on the bubble of a satellite/DoN, it's a form of collusion but so long as no one actually says anything, or acknowledges it, then it is okay, as soon as you make a formal agreement in the chatbox (or wherever) then it becomes collusion.

     
  21-Mar-13, 10:08   #8
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
It's somewhat of a grey area. If you and the other player actually communicate any sort of agreement, then yes it's 100% colussion, and you will be banned if caught, and rightly so. So what if the other players sit out, according to the rules of poker, and all sites, you still must play against that other player normally. They don't "deserve" to get ripped off, just because they are sitting out.

Now if you guys don't in any way communicate the intent, but just alternate anyways, then I'd say it's somewhat more complicated. As you SHOULD still be playing against each other, it's collussion if you don't, however there's nothing stopping you from attacking the other players openly, while playing more conservatively against each other.

I've found myself in this spot before, and found the best strategy was to just become hyper aggressive against the other guy. Better to try and take all the chips you can, rather than share with someone else.

     
  21-Mar-13, 13:06   #9
  0 
uhhcallmi 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: Netherlands
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 587
done that many times in the past...specialy on pokerstars freerolls...only me and another sitting in..

i just write in chat and offer to split the blinds untill a 3rd active player comes to our table..

have never had problem with that,,exept some dude don't accept the offer and tell me they want also my chips..which means war Angry ,,then simply knock him out and move on..


would never do this in a regular tournament...but as i said before in the freerolls ,like hubble's freeroll
never had problem with that..also no disturbings mails from suppport or whatsoever..


ps. 1 tiny advice to demodawggy: loosen up a bit ,,i've railed some of your games and as i should

try to thighten up in certain spots during a tournament..you definetely have to losen up..you play way,way too thight...

read some pokertheory articles..here at BRM or on the internet..if you would use holdem manager or pokertracker you would find out out that you play way too thight...

Poker is not about being superthight and reach ITM... it's about making the right decisions and win tournaments...if you play tournaments mainly..of course

that's why volume is am important factor in your succesrate..with high volume you can beat variance..and reach final tables now and then..

By playing superthight ..finaltables will be hard to reach..
ask others...rail some profitable players and see how they do things ...and try copy what their doing..

good luck to ya demodawggy ..hope you don't see this as critisism but as positive advise .. Thumbs Up

------------
the fact that 7 out of 9 players sit out ...or a few of them sit out .can bring a disadvantage for you at the table...so they actualy make things more difficult by sitting out...

that's my opinion..how you gonna count your outs when 7 of 9 sit out?? most cards are dealth so you get maximum disinformation...instead of punishing myself i rather split the blinds.

why enter a freeroll and sitout all tournament..they should be banned if you ask me..register if you gonna play ...and don't annoy others if your not gonna play it...

anyway i hardly ever...play those freerolls any more..exctualy never ,,then i'd rather go to full-tilt

and play the 150$ freerolls...

Edited by uhhcallmi (Thursday, March 21, 2013 @ 13:24 GMT)


     
  21-Mar-13, 13:58   #10
  0 
demodawggy 

Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 5682
Posted by uhhcallmi:
done that many times in the past...specialy on pokerstars freerolls...only me and another sitting in..

i just write in chat and offer to split the blinds untill a 3rd active player comes to our table..

have never had problem with that,,exept some dude don't accept the offer and tell me they want also my chips..which means war Angry ,,then simply knock him out and move on..


would never do this in a regular tournament...but as i said before in the freerolls ,like hubble's freeroll
never had problem with that..also no disturbings mails from suppport or whatsoever..


ps. 1 tiny advice to demodawggy: loosen up a bit ,,i've railed some of your games and as i should

try to thighten up in certain spots during a tournament..you definetely have to losen up..you play way,way too thight...

read some pokertheory articles..here at BRM or on the internet..if you would use holdem manager or pokertracker you would find out out that you play way too thight...

Poker is not about being superthight and reach ITM... it's about making the right decisions and win tournaments...if you play tournaments mainly..of course

that's why volume is am important factor in your succesrate..with high volume you can beat variance..and reach final tables now and then..

By playing superthight ..finaltables will be hard to reach..
ask others...rail some profitable players and see how they do things ...and try copy what their doing..

good luck to ya demodawggy ..hope you don't see this as critisism but as positive advise .. Thumbs Up

------------
the fact that 7 out of 9 players sit out ...or a few of them sit out .can bring a disadvantage for you at the table...so they actualy make things more difficult by sitting out...

that's my opinion..how you gonna count your outs when 7 of 9 sit out?? most cards are dealth so you get maximum disinformation...instead of punishing myself i rather split the blinds.

why enter a freeroll and sitout all tournament..they should be banned if you ask me..register if you gonna play ...and don't annoy others if your not gonna play it...

anyway i hardly ever...play those freerolls any more..exctualy never ,,then i'd rather go to full-tilt

and play the 150$ freerolls...




You are right dude,...I do tend to play fairly tight, and I don't see your comments as negative criticism. I agree with you. It more or less gets you into the money though. I tend to play looser off the start,...then gradually tighten up. Once in the money,....then I loosen up again and PLAY for the bigger money...



As for colluding in Hubble freerolls,.... lol... It's full of CHEATERS already with multiple accounts.... Go look through a few entrants lists.... It's even WORSE than BrM freerolls.... Big Smile

     
  21-Mar-13, 17:00   #11
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
If you talk about it and agree on getting the chips from the other players,
probably its one of the definitions of collusion. Even if they sit out and wont
be back before the end of the tournament.
But even if you dont say anything and realize you can take turns on it,
by just raising and folding then thats a "form" of cheat too.
I doubt though that any site will take drastic actions about it, if you happen to get reported,
especially when its a freeroll.

     
  21-Mar-13, 17:23   #12
  0 
demodawggy 

Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 5682
Lots of feedback...!

If you have 2 competant players at a table full of sitter's out,...none of them are going to get the chips anyway. WHO would fold to a sitter out.... nobody with a brain. Either one of the 2 live players will get the chips anyway as soon as a bet is laid. If I see the other guy fold,...I'm not folding too,...and visa versa.

....but,...of course, as mentioned above,...once a 3rd player comes back, it's game over...


     
  21-Mar-13, 17:45   #13
  0 
uhhcallmi 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: Netherlands
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 587
reported by a sit outer??? now hows that possible ??? Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  21-Mar-13, 18:20   #14
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
If you turn that agreement "official", chating with your opponent about that, you can consider it collusion. If, on the other side, it happens, naturally, because one bets half of the times and the other one bets the other half, than in that case it can't be consider collusion. It's the same if you are in a final table with 5k chips, one of your opponents with 6k chips and another one with 400. It will be obvious that both with more chips will make everything to wait for the short stack to run out of chips.

     
  21-Mar-13, 23:44   #15
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4862
My take on this is that where you openly agree to alternate folds then that is clear collusion, however if by chance, you start playing alternate folds (almost by intuition) then surely that cannot be collusion, in the same way that not saying so, but two players checking down the smaller all in pot to get them out rather than build another stack in the middle.

     
  22-Mar-13, 01:01   #16
  0 
teddybears73 
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 3181
aye,it's collusion if there's any talking but i've been at tables when you just know after a couple of hands that most are sitting out so you and the other one just sort of know not to bet and we just share the blinds.
if someone actually said it then i would start to play and ignore them.

     
  22-Mar-13, 01:26   #17
  0 
RoninHarper 

Joined: Nov '12
Location: Canada
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 4440
g'day dawg

You already know it is considered collusion and is a form of cheating.
That said mate. If you can get away with it then yum yum.
If it was not you it would be someone else.
Best of luck to you.

Ronin Cool

     
  22-Mar-13, 02:57   #18
  0 
demodawggy 

Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 5682
Posted by RoninHarper:
g'day dawg

You already know it is considered collusion and is a form of cheating.
That said mate. If you can get away with it then yum yum.
If it was not you it would be someone else.
Best of luck to you.

Ronin Cool



I don't neccessarilly know it to be that,....

If it were a table full of players all sitting in playing,....and I was arranging things with one or 2 other players to sway the game in our favour,....well yes, definately collusion.

Sitting at a table full of sitter's out and agreeing with the sole other player not to destroy each other,...I think that's a slightly different beast...

We'd not be working together to cheat other folks,....but rather just not to knock each other out, which ultimately would add more chips to our stacks.

Also,.....you have to ask yourself,....why do these people enter a tourney they have no intention of playing.

Half of them never play a hand in the game,....and the other half have multiple accounts and only play the spot once they've been knocked out of one of there OTHER seats....

My sentiment is,....screw them anyhow,...there either plugging up seats that other folks would actually play in,...or they themselves are cheating with multiple accounts. Only VERY few of them are actually gone to have a quick pee or grab a coffee or beer...

Along with playing a little poker,....the main reason I'm in a Hubble tourney is to get a ticket to a money game,....where you'll NEVER encounter a whole table full of sitter's-out!

     
  22-Mar-13, 11:17   #19
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
As I thought I replied, but must not have posted. I'm sure we've all been in this situation or, at least it sounds like it. Collusion is actually, personal interpretation, a plan being excuted by one or more players to eliminate a competitive player. This is my thoughts although it probably sounds like I read it somewhere which is probably true, it's just been a long time ago somewhere.

Anyway if your atempting to eliminate a non-competitive player I see it as no way being attributed to collusion, but I'm not an experienced player.

     
  22-Mar-13, 11:34   #20
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Posted by demodawggy:
Sitting at a table full of sitter's out and agreeing with the sole other player not to destroy each other,...I think that's a slightly different beast...

We'd not be working together to cheat other folks,....but rather just not to knock each other out, which ultimately would add more chips to our stacks.

Half of them never play a hand in the game,....and the other half have multiple accounts and only play the spot once they've been knocked out of one of there OTHER seats....


I don't think it's a question of whether these sit out players deserve to get knocked out. As said above it's not a question of ethics but an issue of rules. Working together to not knock each other out is collusion... fact. It's doesn't matter whether you have a logical reason to let them stay in the game or if you potentially earn more by folding the hand, it is always collusion if you fold what you think is the better hand.

And you are probably right about most of the sit outs, they are actually worse than any kind of nonverbal collusion but there may be some players who have lost connection or players who have to pop out for twenty minutes and they have the same right to a fair game as anyone else. Obviously their stacks will dwindle much quicker if you two fold every hand preflop and it's also not fair on the other players on other tables if your stacks are growing faster without risk due to not playing hands. In any case it is breaking the collusion rule and it's not up to you to decide which rules are ok to break.

     
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