Joined: Mar '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 48
apart from being able to control the pot - i think position dictates this much more, why always reraise when say 40% of the time a pot is non helpful to most
why is not better to call to see the flop and minimise losses when your cards dont flop
Joined: Mar '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 75
to many donks get a A and reraise all the time and peaple raise to put pressure on the other oppoment or to see whare thay are in the hand it all depends what kind of hand you have got people with strong hands will raise preflop to get the stragglers off the hands
Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 64 (M)
Posts: 6036
"...when say 40% of the time a pot is non helpful to most..."
I'm thinking you meant to say 'flop' and not 'pot'....
The pot is ALWAYS usefull to SOMEONE....lol...
I'd ONLY reraise if I had AA KK QQ,...maybe AK,...otherwise,...let the flop come...
Position doesn't matter to me...
------------
Posted by manuste6: to many donks get a A and reraise all the time and peaple raise to put pressure on the other oppoment or to see whare thay are in the hand it all depends what kind of hand you have got people with strong hands will raise preflop to get the stragglers off the hands
I hate those idiots who play aces like they have it all..... What good is an ace with a flop of all bottom cards...?
To some,...having an ace is like some guy with a small penis and low testosterone suddenly having a gun,....it gives them a false sense of new found power... lol...
Joined: Feb '13
Location: Slovenia
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 52
What do you mean position doesn't matter? Ofcourse it does...If your positon is right after UTG and UTG raises and there is a full table(9 players) and you hold something like J,J maybe T,T i'm pretty sure i will fold or go all in (depends on how big UTGs bet was) as you have to count there is still 7 players waiting to make a move after you. If i'm on BB with T,T or J,J and UTG raises i'll probably call or reraise. Or not?
Joined: Mar '13
Location: Pakistan
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 3
I wouldnt recommend re-raising all the time. But if you have a monster hand then its probably a good idea to try and get some chips in the middle before the flop. And perhaps even get your whole stack in too.
Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 64 (M)
Posts: 6036
Posted by Notexactly: What do you mean position doesn't matter? Ofcourse it does...If your positon is right after UTG and UTG raises and there is a full table(9 players) and you hold something like J,J maybe T,T i'm pretty sure i will fold or go all in (depends on how big UTGs bet was) as you have to count there is still 7 players waiting to make a move after you. If i'm on BB with T,T or J,J and UTG raises i'll probably call or reraise. Or not?
Yes,...but I said:
"...I'd ONLY reraise if I had AA KK QQ,...maybe AK..."
...and with those cards,....doesn't matter where I'm sittin'.....
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
It's not as simple as only re-raising with QQ+. For one thing if you only reraise with those premium hands any smart player would put you on those on the flop and fold if they miss. Of course you get plenty of donks on lower levels who always keep calling with mid pairs to the river but you shouldn't be relying on donks to make a profit.
There are plenty of occasions preflop where you should raise and plenty where you should just call. It's too complicated to really explain everything in one post but the idea that you will miss most flops so you shouldn't reraise two high cards couldn't be further from the truth.
If utg min-raises for instance you don't want to call with A10 in the CO. You are encouraging the button and big blind to call with any crap and you don't get any information from the raiser so how are you going to play if the flop comes A 9 5 or similar? Folding is also a little tight unless you are short-stacked or playing against someone loose or hyper aggressive, so you should raise to isolate the raiser and get a good idea of his hand. It doesn't matter if you miss the flop, you can c-bet most with a good position.
There are even times when you should reraise a reraise. For example one player raises and another goes all-in and you have pocket Js. If you call you may price in the original raiser but if you think they are both quite aggressive you may want to isolate the all-in player by reraising again. You might get out-flopped but the initial raiser puts added value in the pot and it's safer than getting a high card flop, but it all depends on stack sizes so obviously you shouldn't always reraise with JJ or even QQ.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Posted by Macubaas: I have to agree with the second post of this thread, i mean there is no reason at all to reraise if you do not have any of the hands posted there!
In other games like omaha strong double suited hands worth to make this move but simply because they are strong hands...
Are you real? There are plenty of reasons to reraise without those three premium hands.
And as for omaha. Strong hands are far more likely to hold up from preflop to flop in hold em than omaha. I don't know whether you should reraise less preflop in omaha but to suggest that there are stronger starting hands in omaha is crazy.
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Estonia
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 614
can reraise with any hand all depends how tight opponents are and how many players after u and so on .... even if u have crap u might get lucky or opponent simply fold after ya make another bet after flop (not work at freerolls better not even try)
Joined: Aug '12
Location: Slovakia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 688
Well I think it depends on what kiind of player (tight or loose) raised first preflop, position, stacks...
example: you are on bb with AJs. UTG minraise, everybody folds. I often reraise in this situation. It costs you more preflop, but it can help you to identify hand of your opponent, if he is very strong (AA,KK,QQ..)
If you would just call and flop came 8,J,3 you are in serious trouble... if opponent has monster.
If very LOOSE player who plays like 50% hands opens with raise preflop and you have decent hand like AK, AQ, JJ its definitively reraise again. Its because with his range, you are most of the times better, so you want to put more chips to pot.
If TIGHT player who plays like 15% hands opens with raise, its ofcourse more likely that he has really strong hand so then your play should be more careful.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 5712
Hmmmm. Lots of opinion and not all agreeing....... Thats the wonder fo poker. ReRAising pre flop can be an effective way of getting most players out of the pot which leaves you with either, a good chance of taking the pot there and then, or rasing your chances against only one person who is brave (or stupid) enough to stay in with you.
Just calling to see the flop can be very dangerous and more expensive in the long term.
Assess your cards, position and opponents before deciding how to play!
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Estonia
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 442
In microlimits there is no point for fancy poker, you cant just call with AA or KK, to many people come in to see flop. Reraise and hope that other fold and original raiser goes allin or calls.
If the table is very aggressive, you have a much better chance of being re-raised, re-re-raised also much more likely to end up facing an all-in call pre-flop without really whittling down the number of players in the hand. While that's great if you win the hand it also means you're less likely to win the hand. In the end, you have to decide if the table is going to treat a raise as a red flag to be charged or will the act rationally.
Joined: Mar '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 48
Posted by damosk:
Just calling to see the flop can be very dangerous and more expensive in the long term.
Assess your cards, position and opponents before deciding how to play!
i can see your point, by jsut calling you are giving a much larger number of people a chance to the see the flop for cheap who can then match up, whereas re-raising at least elimantes the rags
something like 32% chance of makin a pair so at least by reraising preflop you can continuation bet
i dont necessarily agree with just re-raising top 5 hands for example, you need the bluff on semi good hands like you bluff on semi draws etc, otherwise far 2 easy to read
then how much to re-raise is a whole another issue!
each to their own - so much to learn
and btw - i did mean flop not pot in original post!
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1457
Posted by awood88: It's not as simple as only re-raising with QQ+. For one thing if you only reraise with those premium hands any smart player would put you on those on the flop and fold if they miss. Of course you get plenty of donks on lower levels who always keep calling with mid pairs to the river but you shouldn't be relying on donks to make a profit.
There are plenty of occasions preflop where you should raise and plenty where you should just call. It's too complicated to really explain everything in one post but the idea that you will miss most flops so you shouldn't reraise two high cards couldn't be further from the truth.
If utg min-raises for instance you don't want to call with A10 in the CO. You are encouraging the button and big blind to call with any crap and you don't get any information from the raiser so how are you going to play if the flop comes A 9 5 or similar? Folding is also a little tight unless you are short-stacked or playing against someone loose or hyper aggressive, so you should raise to isolate the raiser and get a good idea of his hand. It doesn't matter if you miss the flop, you can c-bet most with a good position.
There are even times when you should reraise a reraise. For example one player raises and another goes all-in and you have pocket Js. If you call you may price in the original raiser but if you think they are both quite aggressive you may want to isolate the all-in player by reraising again. You might get out-flopped but the initial raiser puts added value in the pot and it's safer than getting a high card flop, but it all depends on stack sizes so obviously you shouldn't always reraise with JJ or even QQ.
I find this one of the best comments on the thread...
Only 3-betting with monster hands is not a good idea (ok in the beginning stage on a torney, but in the late stage they will figure it out)
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by awood88: I don't know whether you should reraise less preflop in omaha but to suggest that there are stronger starting hands in omaha is crazy.
I remember reading a long time ago (years) and never followed up on whether it's true and can't remember the source now, except that I remember thinking it was a reputable source at the time.. Something along the lines of:
While it is true that the top 1% or so of hands in NLHE (QQ+ basically) will hold up better than the top 1% of Omaha hands, I heard that the top 10-20% of Omaha hands hold up better than the top 10-20% of Holdem hands..
I might look into this, I am curious now and it was a long time ago I heard it.. but the basic idea was 'it is a misconception that Holdem is more of a preflop game than Omaha'
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by awood88: I don't know whether you should reraise less preflop in omaha but to suggest that there are stronger starting hands in omaha is crazy.
I remember reading a long time ago (years) and never followed up on whether it's true and can't remember the source now, except that I remember thinking it was a reputable source at the time.. Something along the lines of:
While it is true that the top 1% or so of hands in NLHE (QQ+ basically) will hold up better than the top 1% of Omaha hands, I heard that the top 10-20% of Omaha hands hold up better than the top 10-20% of Holdem hands..
I might look into this, I am curious now and it was a long time ago I heard it.. but the basic idea was 'it is a misconception that Holdem is more of a preflop game than Omaha'
It stands to reason, at least from a purely mathematical standpoint anyways, that this would be completely true. The reason being, since there are more cards in each players hand, that leaves fewer cards in the deck. This alone skews the pot/draw odds that I'm sure we're all familiar with in Hold'em.
Conversely, each player holding more cards, gives them more ways to re-draw, should a player suckout. For example:
Player 1 has AAKK double suited, against someone who has say QJ65 3 suited. Of course the Second player can catch a lucky flop, but the AAKK still has a hell of lot more outs, depending on the flop. Since it's omaha however, it'll take a lot longer for any marginal amount of EV to show up because of variance.
As for OP's initial quesiton, I'd say there's a lot that factors how much you should be 3-betting preflop:
Position Table dynamics (Ie: if the table is generally tighter, or looser) Who made the initial raise, and in what position.
For example, if an aggressive player raises in late position, in an unopened pot, you can assume it's quite often a steal and he's likely pretty weak. In that situation, I'd 3bet lighter IF you know he shuts down to 3bets a lot.
On the other hand, if a tighter player raises from EP/MP, I'd say tighten up a LOT because they are only raising top tier hands, especially in earlier spots.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Posted by retribution:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by awood88: I don't know whether you should reraise less preflop in omaha but to suggest that there are stronger starting hands in omaha is crazy.
I remember reading a long time ago (years) and never followed up on whether it's true and can't remember the source now, except that I remember thinking it was a reputable source at the time.. Something along the lines of:
While it is true that the top 1% or so of hands in NLHE (QQ+ basically) will hold up better than the top 1% of Omaha hands, I heard that the top 10-20% of Omaha hands hold up better than the top 10-20% of Holdem hands..
I might look into this, I am curious now and it was a long time ago I heard it.. but the basic idea was 'it is a misconception that Holdem is more of a preflop game than Omaha'
It stands to reason, at least from a purely mathematical standpoint anyways, that this would be completely true. The reason being, since there are more cards in each players hand, that leaves fewer cards in the deck. This alone skews the pot/draw odds that I'm sure we're all familiar with in Hold'em.
Conversely, each player holding more cards, gives them more ways to re-draw, should a player suckout. For example:
Player 1 has AAKK double suited, against someone who has say QJ65 3 suited. Of course the Second player can catch a lucky flop, but the AAKK still has a hell of lot more outs, depending on the flop. Since it's omaha however, it'll take a lot longer for any marginal amount of EV to show up because of variance.
I take the point about stronger starting hands in omaha being in much better positions on any flop compared to hands which must hit a flop. If I'm honest I hadn't considered this before and I actually think when I've played omaha live I might have been too easily drawn into seeing a flop with any four and then wondered why I always get out-drawn.
But I'd point out I wasn't actually incorrect about hold em hands being stronger in comparison. Although there may be more "strong" hands in omaha, (a fact I didn't really know if I'm honest) the fact that there are so many means that you can't 3-bet as much, since you never know if your opponent has a slightly stronger one. Whereas in hold em you can 3-bet with those top 5/6 hands very confidently. Although I imagine it's quite important to raise preflop omaha to get an easier read on your opponent and filter out the bottom 75%, it all depends on your opponents knowing to fold those hands, and also it still means you have to commit more preflop with more variance to counter later on.
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1457
the strongness of your omaha starting hands is relative .... if they hit nothing on the flop they are almost worthless.... you can only hope to see a free turn (or a very cheap one)
also good starting hands are hands like 7 8 9 10 (doubled suited connected)
if you get a flop like 3 9 8
you have
--> 4 outs for a FH --> 8 outs for a flush (not ace high) --> 11 outs for a str
together 23 outs
compared to AAKK --> postflop behind vs 2 pair (88-99)
best possible if it s AK --> 9 outs (flush, opponets cards not included)+ 4 outs (AAKK) --> 13
otherwise just 4 outs left and if a pair comes on the board with the turn or river (AA-33)
So in my opinion AAKK is a strong hands but it still has to hit ....
8 
9 
