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  23-Apr-13, 18:35   #1
Overcards in Hand,....Undercards on the Flop....? 0 
demodawggy 

Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 5680
Everybody gets a really nice pocket with like AK or KQ or even A 10 or something like that,...but on the flop comes stuff like 2 4 7,...or 3 8 J,....or the like. You called a preflop raise, or have raised your self to start,...and the pot is huge. You MISS on the flop and folks are betting big and re raising....

What do you do....?

Keep betting into the pot hoping to hit,...or have some self control and just let it go hoping you did the right thing....

I usually let it go unless it's cheap to continue when folks check or min bet.

When I let it go,...I had the nutz in the end,...

If I play it I lose to someone with like a pair of 2s.... Confused

It's not very often I play it out and pull a rabbit out of the hat... Smile


Opinions folks!

     
  23-Apr-13, 20:22   #2
  0 
8wall 

Joined: Apr '13
Location: Netherlands
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 45
This kinda has to do with a previous thread i created , sometimes i think that if there are a lotta people at the table playing the hand , it seems logic they have the higher cards wich in turn meens there are more lower cards in the deck left then the higher.
I believe that if u are at a late position and u see people rasing or calling a 2x 3 x blnd bets, sometimes its wise to follow with a lower hand cause the possibillity is there that u will make a set or two pair.
Many people laughed this away but oddly it worked for me a fair amount of times, after all A-K, A-Q, is still only a high card ace and gets beaten by any pair.


As for youre question, it happens to me a lot too, if i fold they come on the table , if i call they wont, all in the game i think..........or were just louzy pokerplayers .... Confused

anyway,.......

May the one-toothed pokergod in the sky wave his magic wand on youre flops,turn and rivers in the future........ Worship


8wall

     
  23-Apr-13, 20:52   #3
  0 
demodawggy 

Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 5680
Maybe I AM a crappy player....lol... Big Smile

It didn't even enter my thoughts that it may be a possibility,...

I guess I'm just the ol' proverbial 'Legend in my own mind'.... Big Smile

     
  24-Apr-13, 00:11   #4
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
@8wall- I don't know if you read my response to that other thread but you should understand how dangerous your strategy is. If there is a bet and a raise on any low flop, short of freerolls and min stakes, a low single pair is never that good. Often AK or A10 will c-bet but as demodawggy describes, these hands can easily turn into good hands. So if you have to call a few raises preflop you will definitely lose more money in the long run calling with low cards, even if you fold every time the flop is high and maximize the low flops.

@demodawggy- Ironically, you have to watch out for players like 8-wall, they make it difficult to play flops such as the examples you describe. But when playing decent levels or late stages of tourneys most players should fold pocket 4s or less to a reraise preflop, good players fold pocket 8s and A10. And btw you shouldn't put AK in the same bracket as KQ.

You should reraise with AK imo to eliminate half your opponents range. So when the flop comes 3 8 J you can put your opponent on a hand. Many will bet out here as they don't put you on the J but they can represent it themselves. Depending on your opinion of the player you might want to raise, it's not a bluff as much as a hand stopper, a safer way to win than calling or a better move to get information but if your opponent does call your hand can still improve. However, if a second person in the hand raises, then unless you have a superread on both you want to get out of the hand with A high. Although you could be in front you could also be dominated, AJ is a real possibility.

With a flop like 2 3 7 rainbow it's very hard for anyone to represent a hand if there was a reraise preflop. In fact usually trips would check here to allow their opponents to catch up but some players might reverse that to disguise their hand. Still, they need an aggressive loose player to over value their two over cards. So when playing these flops you should consider your image and your opponent. But I would automatically fold K high here. And whether I play my ace depends on so many factors it's too hard to explain. And this post is already quite long.

But the basic idea is that strong preflop hands are played strongly preflop so that they can be played strongly on the flop and they miss less flops than you think.

     
  24-Apr-13, 03:39   #5
  +1 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by demodawggy:
Everybody gets a really nice pocket with like AK or KQ or even A 10 or something like that,...but on the flop comes stuff like 2 4 7,...or 3 8 J,....or the like. You called a preflop raise, or have raised your self to start,...and the pot is huge. You MISS on the flop and....
What do you do....?
.



Generally this is a pretty tricky situation, it is largely dependant on:

Opponent table image
Whether or not you have position
Your table image
Stack sizes
Number of people involved in hand
Number of people left to act
The action that has preceded you

Generally if you're the preflop aggressor, you can normally put in a C-bet and evaluate after that.

Posted by demodawggy:
You MISS on the flop and folks are betting big and re raising....

What do you do....?


Opinions folks!



In this instance you snap fold, if you MISS any flop, with any cards and people are betting big AND re-raising, then you have to fold.

     
  24-Apr-13, 06:23   #6
  0 
8wall 

Joined: Apr '13
Location: Netherlands
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 45
@awood88, i did read all the reply's to the thread i made and i thought them over including yourse, thanks for that.

But it seems u are contradicting yourself in one single reply, u are telling me the strategy for playing a low hand sucks,and a few lines later u are telling demodawgy to watch out for players who play my strategy??? Confused.

Let me explain it again.... only in late position and when (on a table of 10) 7-8 people call the blinds or make bets 2-3 X the big blind it can be profitable to pay to see the flop with hands like 6-7 suited ,not only cause of the possibillity of a straight/flush, but also of the fact its most likely they are holding the higher cards, wich leaves the lower cards still in the deck.

If playing 6-7 suited and 8-9-10 is on the table u always have to be carefull for a higher straight ofcourse..!!!


Im already holding my head down for all the crap i will get over me for this post..... (please be gentle) Big Smile


May the yellow-toothed pokergod in the dungeon shine his bright light on youre holecards Worship

8wall

     
  24-Apr-13, 21:26   #7
  0 
demodawggy 

Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 5680
Some interesting concepts there gents! Some of which I do already consider...and a few perspectives I should take into account...

Jesse mentioned snap folding,....but one thing I've noticed is folks who 'snap raise' after others check in those situations,...and the majority of times they are bluffing,...or have a small pair and are hoping to push others off the pot and snatch the hand...

Of course,....there is a wide difference in what goes on depending on the type of folks you are playing against, whether it be the facbook freeroller crowd you find in BrM freeroll donkfests, or folks playing games like The Bigger $11...

Sometimes after playing too many BrM games,...that donkfest mindset remains and I find myself having to re-adjust to a more thoughtfull game... Smile

     
  25-Apr-13, 02:21   #8
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2096
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by demodawggy:
Everybody gets a really nice pocket with like AK or KQ or even A 10 or something like that,...but on the flop comes stuff like 2 4 7,...or 3 8 J,....or the like. You called a preflop raise, or have raised your self to start,...and the pot is huge. You MISS on the flop and....
What do you do....?
.



Generally this is a pretty tricky situation, it is largely dependant on:

Opponent table image
Whether or not you have position
Your table image
Stack sizes
Number of people involved in hand
Number of people left to act
The action that has preceded you

Generally if you're the preflop aggressor, you can normally put in a C-bet and evaluate after that.

Posted by demodawggy:
You MISS on the flop and folks are betting big and re raising....

What do you do....?


Opinions folks!



In this instance you snap fold, if you MISS any flop, with any cards and people are betting big AND re-raising, then you have to fold.


What more is there to say? Good post Jess, as usual!

Demodawgy --> If it's this :"or have a small pair and are hoping to push others off the pot and snatch the hand...", then they are doing the right thing. Because their hand is better than yours if you have no pair. Of course, it doesn't mean you have to bet any small pair, especially in multi-way pots, but when you don't have anything except ace high and people are betting, it's usually a snap fold. That's also why nowadays more and more people only raise 2x to 3x pre flop in MTTs. Professionnal NLHE is pretty much all about post flop action, player image, position etc. Depending on who you are against, you can call(float)/raise with only ace high, but it's always a risky play.

Edited by TheMachineQC (Thursday, April 25, 2013 @ 02:29 GMT)


     
  25-Apr-13, 03:07   #9
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by demodawggy:
Jesse mentioned snap folding,....but one thing I've noticed is folks who 'snap raise' after others check in those situations,...and the majority of times they are bluffing,...or have a small pair and are hoping to push others off the pot and snatch the hand...


I was more referring to if the raise AND the re-raise all came before your action. If you c-bet and somebody re-raises you, then it's a lot trickier. But if there is already a raise on the flop and a re-raise before it gets to you, I think in most situations you should fold over-cards fairly easily.


Also, I'm mostly a tournament player, so in my opinion there is generally 'better spots'. In the early-mid stages when stacks are still medium-deep I don't like to risk my tournament life getting it in on a flop with just over cards, especially multi-way. Even if you're ahead, it's not going to be by much, since you're probably facing draws or other live cards that just need to pair up to beat you.

Deep-stacked cash games are a bit more complicated.. But I still reason if there has been significant action before you on the flop, you can probably just safely fold over cards. But if you've put in a C-bet, somebody flat calls it then someone else re-raises, then it's tricky, because it looks like a 'play' and it well might be. That's when you have to consider table image, opponent history, etc. Generally speaking, it's best not to 'level' yourself. Especially against fish/donks - they're all on 'level 1' thinking and if you try and out-level them, you will just level yourself.

EDIT: In this situation, before you do anything, ask yourself these questions:

Do I really want to start a raising war, vs multiple opponents with nothing except Ace or King high?
If they call my raises what is my plan on a blank turn? Will I fire another barrel or give up?
If they re-raise my raise, how far am I willing to take the raise-war? Am I going to fold to a flop 4 or 5bet or put them allin?
How far am I willing to take the hand with no pair and just high cards?
IF aces/kings are OUTs for me, will I get paid if a King or Ace lands on the turn/river, or will that kill the action?


If you think through all of these questions, particularly at low-stakes, ask yourself if it's really worth playing a hyper-aggressive high variance game ? Or better just to stick to spots where you know you've got some equity?

Edited by jessthehuman (Thursday, April 25, 2013 @ 03:13 GMT)


     
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