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  27-Nov-13, 18:14   #1
Full Tilt and Greece, New Regulations 0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
With the new laws and regulations Full Tilt acquired a license for Greece.
We were informed by email.
There was a link where you could find all the details.

Bottom line is that Full Tilt from now on will withhold 15% of any winnings between
100-500 Euro and 20% for 500 Euro and more.
That in a 24hrs basis starting and ending at 7am Greece time.

Edited by Mober (Wednesday, November 27, 2013 @ 19:06 GMT)


     
  27-Nov-13, 19:06   #2
  0 
RoninHarper 

Joined: Nov '12
Location: Canada
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 4440
G'date mober

Well I think that really sucks out load.
I think you should only be charged the taxes when you do a cashout.
The government are now collecting a large rake from poker players who live in Greece.
Governments are nothing but legalized mafia.
I'm just saying.
Wishing you all the best
be cool

Ronin Cool

     
  27-Nov-13, 20:17   #3
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by Mober:
Bottom line is that Full Tilt from now on will withhold 15% of any winnings between
100-500 Euro and 20% for 500 Euro and more.
That in a 24hrs basis starting and ending at 7am Greece time.

Does that mean if you stop playing before you win 100 EUR each day, you pay no taxes at all?
That would mean you'd be able to earn 3000 EUR per month untaxed.
I've heard about worse regulations than that (Spain comes to mind).

How do you feel about it?

     
  27-Nov-13, 21:26   #4
  0 
stanjonhson 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 44
I think situation in Bulgaria is similar u cant register a new acount real money in ftp or pokerstars, in russia u cant open poker sites at all

     
  27-Nov-13, 21:39   #5
  0 
RoninHarper 

Joined: Nov '12
Location: Canada
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 4440
Well how do you explain all the Russian players then?
I am just wondering how so many of them are playing poker online illegally if they can not even open a poker site?
best wishes mates
be cool

Ronin Cool

     
  27-Nov-13, 22:19   #6
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
Yes thats right marqis. If you stop before the mark there will be no tax.
So you can get almost 3k Euro untaxed.

It could have been worst. I believe its not too many players that this system affects here,
regarding ring games. We dont have that many high stakes players.
But there are a few making a living from it in lower limits.


     
  27-Nov-13, 23:56   #7
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
How can anyone say this is not bad?
This is horrible for any greek grinder who's "properly" grinding.
You get taxed on your winning days,during your losing days however you're not getting a penny.
Lets say you have 10 days of winning $500,10 days of winning $100 and 10 days of losing $300 in a month.
You'd have a net win of $3000 that month pre taxes.
However,with these taxes you're left with only $1950 that month,thats almost 35% in taxes paid,and that number could even get worse using other math.
It doesn't surprise me to see not a single greek regular playing on pokerstars atm (same tax rule applies fo pokerstars as well).

And to say you can earn almost 3K taxfree.. I'd be surprised to see anyone who has ever had 30 winning days in a row


     
  28-Nov-13, 08:23   #8
  0 
stanjonhson 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 44
ROnin what I say is if they already have a poker software they can play poker , and I livin in Russia by the moment and what I did is ask a pokerstars support to send me a install file of softwar. And is many russians poker strategy sites where u could ask somebody to send you the file. Worship P.s I meant they cant open a web page in browser but connectivity with the game is ok

     
  28-Nov-13, 10:04   #9
  0 
uno1Bomber 

Joined: May '13
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 541
Posted by stanjonhson:
ROnin what I say is if they already have a poker software they can play poker , and I livin in Russia by the moment and what I did is ask a pokerstars support to send me a install file of softwar. And is many russians poker strategy sites where u could ask somebody to send you the file. Worship P.s I meant they cant open a web page in browser but connectivity with the game is ok

What are you talking about? Confused

     
  28-Nov-13, 10:10   #10
  0 
stanjonhson 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 44
its some provider that when I trying to open a ps of ftp site just said this site is blocked by a consular ( i dont know what it means its just says thats this site is blocked beacose of law



Attached ImagesБезымянный.jpg

     
  28-Nov-13, 10:34   #11
  0 
uno1Bomber 

Joined: May '13
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 541
Posted by stanjonhson:
its some provider that when I trying to open a ps of ftp site just said this site is blocked by a consular ( i dont know what it means its just says thats this site is blocked beacose of law


Where are you now? In Russian or Bulgaria?
When I go to ....stars dot com it redirects me to ....stars dot eu/ru
But I have no problems with visiting the site or downloading the software.
I think, you should change your IProvider.

     
  28-Nov-13, 11:17   #12
  0 
sergejcho 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Macedonia, The former Yugoslav Republic of
Age: 63 (M)
Posts: 530
Posted by stanjonhson:
its some provider that when I trying to open a ps of ftp site just said this site is blocked by a consular ( i dont know what it means its just says thats this site is blocked beacose of law




I'm from Macedonia , i CAN PLAY pokerstars and Full Tilt poker both , but the problem is when i want to make withdrawal and press the cashier button it redirecting me to their web site and that page cannot be displayed. Its because Bulgaria is Banned from FTP PS , Besafe and many many platforms , my provider had link throgh Bulgaria.

     
  28-Nov-13, 13:17   #13
  0 
stanjonhson 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 44
Yes thats what we talking about. So. I m in Russia now ut I traveling to Bulgaria ussually once per month. But dosent matter. the case is most of europe set war to the online gambling. Sad

     
  28-Nov-13, 15:00   #14
  0 
Heskor 
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 2659
Hmm sad if they are taking some tax of it. But guess it is unavoidable as they will need to pay tax due to legislation. If you guys had known before you could have cashout from full tilt and played on another poker sites. Anyway if you want to play poker better move to another country if you are a pro.

American pros does that they move to Canada etc or south Americans countries so they can continue to play poker.

I know it is a drastic moves. Tongue

     
  28-Nov-13, 15:13   #15
  0 
stanjonhson 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 44
I think Canada is the best coutry really wanna move up there. The law is so democracy and liberal.

     
  28-Nov-13, 18:59   #16
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
It is bad cause many of the sites refused to get a new license and already parted
from the Greek market.
There arent many options nowadays, if you want to play legally poker in Greece right now.
The law forced the ISP's and they are blocking the sites.
If you bypass them by using for example a VPN and at some point you get caught,
you will have criminal charges against you amongst others.

And now let me explain why its not "that bad"

1) Its not that bad cause some sites saw a perspective in Greek market and acquired a license.
2) Its not that bad cause they tax after 100 Euro, which means no tax, up to 100 Euro (for those
who didnt get it) in a DAILY BASIS. The day starts each time at 7am and ends next morning at
7am local time
Also there is not a single job here in Greece that dont get taxed for that amount of money.
And the tax for all jobs is 23%, not 20% if your winning exceeds 500 Euro in one day.
So if you claim you are a poker Professional here in Greece,with all the respect just Shut the
#@$% up.
You can stay under the radar of 100 Euro and not get taxed at all.

Your example has no validity, while i would like to accept it, for the simple fact, that
"its in your hand not to lose" (i think we can say this without expanding to variety etc)
and if you cant stand it, you can either stop playing or change a "Profession".
Of course if you are a serious grinder you have the option to move in another country,
if you are included in the example you mentioned, since your earnings allowing you for this.
Do you know whats the basic salary here at the moment?......

* Besides the fact we are talking about Euro and not US$ like you mentioned (todays price is
134US$ for each 100 Euro), so that makes it 1950 Euro in your example.
And again, check to see how much the basic monthly salary is.
And dont forget of course that it is getting taxed on top of it !!!
3) Its not that bad cause all prior winnings till 23d of the month when Full Tilt made the transition
werent affected by the new low and you can cash out whenever you like the 100% of the
money you had without being taxed at all/

Now do i agree with the taxation? I believe i have expressed my opinion in other threads about this.
But to look at it from another angle, when you tax everything, why leaving something out.

     
  29-Nov-13, 00:20   #17
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
The only thing having "no validity" is that you compare poker winnings with a regular job.
In a regular job you don't have a daily risk/reward,you have your stable income. In poker you can have a relativly stable income,but over weeks,not over a single day.
We have much bigger taxes on jobs btw,if you are in a considerble good tax class you pay about 33%,many people pay even more over here.
This tax might not be too bad for players that are longterm losing players,because over the long run they dump their money anyways,just this way it's faster.
But there are many greek grinders at the micro/lowstakes SNGs for example,having tiny winrate but putting in lots of volume.
Do you think it's possible to check your current win/loss of the day during a proper SNG session to make sure you don't exceed 100€ in winnings?
For a grinder grinding lowstakes ($3.50-$15 SNGs on stars for example),expecially on the higher buy in end,there are often days where you have swings of $200 and up,in $15s you can easily have $500+ swings,up and down to both directions,that happening daily if you play decent volume.
However,whenever you have one of these ups you get taken away a share of it,while not getting anything if you swing to the other direction a day? Doesn't sound fair to me.
I'm not saying it's not possible to make a decent income with poker anymore with these taxes,but it lowers the already low winrate of the greek massgrinders even more,and it doesn't surprise me to (still) see not a single greek reg playing the stakes I play right now.

The problem with this tax rule isn't the amount,I'd happily forfeit 15% of my net profit to have regulations here,it is that the tax is paid daily,which for someone caring about reasonable samplesize and volume is unacceptable (to me it would be at least)

Btw. it seems like you totally got the point wrong - me a "poker professional in greece"? Maybe learning to read someones country helps before getting offensive,I mentioned my sole opinion,it wasn't meant to be offensive,I can't mention an "average"l greek poker player's point of view playing their 30 minutes of microstakes ringgames each day,but I just wanted to point out what any proper greek grinder probably thinks about this.

Edited by BeMyATMplz (Friday, November 29, 2013 @ 00:28 GMT)


     
  29-Nov-13, 00:54   #18
  +1 
Plexo 
Joined: Aug '09
Location: Chile
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 1336
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
How can anyone say this is not bad?
This is horrible for any greek grinder who's "properly" grinding.
You get taxed on your winning days,during your losing days however you're not getting a penny.
Lets say you have 10 days of winning $500,10 days of winning $100 and 10 days of losing $300 in a month.
You'd have a net win of $3000 that month pre taxes.
However,with these taxes you're left with only $1950 that month,thats almost 35% in taxes paid,and that number could even get worse using other math.
It doesn't surprise me to see not a single greek regular playing on pokerstars atm (same tax rule applies fo pokerstars as well).

And to say you can earn almost 3K taxfree.. I'd be surprised to see anyone who has ever had 30 winning days in a row



You have pointed out a very relevant topic. I think all poker player agree that getting taxes over your winnigns is never good. However, If Greece has already adopted this decision get taxes over 24h periods seems insane. We all know that variance id part of poker, and that you might win $200 one day but lost $300 the next one.
If taxes are going to be charged, It would be more reasonable to paid taxes over a long period of time in my opinion (I guess at least one month)

     
  29-Nov-13, 19:30   #19
  -1 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
The moment you characterize poker as a profession, automatically becomes a "regular job"
By the way, personally never considered nor i ever will, poker as a profession.
Either you make 1 cent from it, or millions.

Of course you can check your daily performance in terms of winnings, losses.
You are not sending a spaceship to Mars.

I believe i understood that right, that you think every time you go up above 100Euro in one
day you get taxed. If thats the case you are wrong. Your results are final after 24 hrs
of play.
So if for example at this time space you have exceeded the 100Euro mark 10 times
and then you fell below it doesnt mean you will get taxed 10 times.
You can go up and down as many times you can.
At the end of the day they will figure out the final outcome.

This measure has been introduced from Full Tilt and from what i heard from others
Poker Stars also. (it only seems logic, since they are the same company)
So far not a single other company operating legally in Greece, has asked us to accept
new TOS, or introduced what FT and PS did.

Now the example you made above and you resulted in the 1950 USD which i said
its 1950 Euro actually has nothing to do with reality.
Since you want to take it one step further, lets state the obvious and very easy to understand,
just using common sense.
I mentioned more than once that first 100 Euro is untaxed. Something you didnt get.
So if in a single day i made a profit of 150 Euro i will be taxed 50x15%=7,5 Euro
and not 150x15%=22,5 Euro
There is a big difference.
And to take it one more step further. If you made in one day 900 euro profit,
it will go like this. You get out the 100 untaxed, so that leaves us with 800.
Now from these 800 you get 400 which you need to reach the limit
of 500 and you tax it with 15% and the rest which goes above 500, you tax it with 20%
So while you thought the tax would have been 900x20%=180 Euro,
it actually goes like this : 900-100=800, 400x15%=60 and 400x20%=80, total of 140.
Now do your math to see the real result with your example, which of course has
nothing to do with the 35% you figured out.

Now lets point something else. The reason you cant see Greek players playing higher limits,
might be the fact that FT itself and i bet PS also according to their new rules,
have put a restriction (country restriction) to higher money games in all forms, rings, sng's, tournies.
Until further notice it will remain like this, (according to them) so the options are limited atm
in these two poker sites.
If you ask me thats a discrimination and unlawful and it could take legal actions against them,
in another universe. But since you have to accept it as a rule, prior signing, enabling you to play again, there is no hope.

And lets make something else clear.
I didnt join BRM yesterday. I know how to read and what to read, unlike you, and
i know pretty well you are from Germany, besides the fact that details such as Location,
Sex and Age are written below everyones Username.
And the truth is that when i first started writing down that sentence i didnt put Greece,
then i thought it over, that you may misunderstood this and get offended, and clarified it
by adding Greece.
And yet instead of that you got it wrong.
What can i say!!!

Now my point of view is not only someone's as you say that plays microstakes a few mins per
day, (although it will affect me at some point cause i have finished in the money
in a tourney above 100 Euro more than once, not in FT so far) but its also someone's who can see
the bigger picture and speak about the subject.
Because i have a very good knowledge of how exactly the whole system of online
poker worked so far., thus entitled me to say, that if any other "proper grinder" here in Greece,
has a different opinion about this, needs to rethink the whole situation.
So lets be realistic and say things by their name.
So far winnings from poker here in Greece was black money. Literally.
And if there was someone that believed this can happen indefinitely, he/she was naive the very least.
Because all shorts of gambling and lotteries here getting taxed, So it was just a matter of time.
In other countries it may never happen.

Now im not defending the whole thing and how we ended up here, but it seems only reasonable
right now with the current economic situation.
Like every other country they want to milk money from wherever they can.

A further expansion to the subject would lead to a clearly discussion about politics, which i hate.

If i get informed on how things will work with the rest of the sites, i will update here.

Edited by Mober (Friday, November 29, 2013 @ 19:35 GMT)


     
  2-Dec-13, 12:13   #20
  0 
mrperfect 
Joined: Sep '07
Location: Finland
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 38
That kind of taxes will spread like cancer all over europe. Its just matter of time.

     
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