Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
If it was a regular tourney, that would have been a good decision... but in a deep stack, I'm not so sure it was. As you said, you didn't think he would be shoving light, so there's very few hands you have bang to rights - 22 through 99... possibly A10.... and in a tournament with 30 minute blind levels, you should only be looking to get all in when you are really strong.
By no means a terrible play... and clearly the right move on this occasion... but in the long run, you should be looking to avoid calling 1/4 of your stack with 10 10 in a deep stack tourney.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 7371
I thought you played the hand perfectly acceptably but just got very unlucky. If you had just flat called you would have probably brought the other player in and then you would have had to make another tough decision after the flop
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
I'am not that sure, that you made a good decision here. Your opponent still had nearly 20 BB, so should not push to lightly (of cause he does in that hand), and there is still that strange minraise from a player in early position. TT is not that good a hand multiway, and even against one opponent you will end up only with a flip a lot of the time.
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 218
Blinds rise every 15 minutes.
Considering it accounted for 25% of my stack, and the guy had been loose and just lost a big pot.
The decision chewed up a fair amount of my timebank, as I was pretty closely looking at my equity in the scenario.
I reduced his range to be 77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+. Obviously, I crush only a small portion of his range and am racing against the rest that isnt a larger pair. The equity that the equilab program gave me was 52.73% against his range, hence the title 50/50.
The equity was slightly on my side, and I had a pretty strong suspicion he was shoving lighter than i was predicting but didn't want to add that to my thought process.
Of course, I still had to worry about the guy to act behind me, so I don't think calling is good, because if he shoves it makes my decision to fold pretty easy, but I've put in 4k of dead money.
TT isn't that strong, and I'm by no means a player who overvalues hands like that pre-flop, but for that particular scenario, everything added up to a re-shove in my opinion, and I was prepared to take 52% equity for only 1/4 of my stack.
I obviously have no way of knowing that he would indeed turn over q7 suited, but in the same situation I'd make the same play every time.
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
Posted by tonespoker: Blinds rise every 15 minutes.
Considering it accounted for 25% of my stack, and the guy had been loose and just lost a big pot.
The decision chewed up a fair amount of my timebank, as I was pretty closely looking at my equity in the scenario.
I reduced his range to be 77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+. Obviously, I crush only a small portion of his range and am racing against the rest that isnt a larger pair. The equity that the equilab program gave me was 52.73% against his range, hence the title 50/50.
The equity was slightly on my side, and I had a pretty strong suspicion he was shoving lighter than i was predicting but didn't want to add that to my thought process.
Of course, I still had to worry about the guy to act behind me, so I don't think calling is good, because if he shoves it makes my decision to fold pretty easy, but I've put in 4k of dead money.
TT isn't that strong, and I'm by no means a player who overvalues hands like that pre-flop, but for that particular scenario, everything added up to a re-shove in my opinion, and I was prepared to take 52% equity for only 1/4 of my stack.
I obviously have no way of knowing that he would indeed turn over q7 suited, but in the same situation I'd make the same play every time.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
You all seem to forget about the deadmoney. We can take this situation even if we had less than 50% equity. Also I'd discount AA and KK from his range, most of the time, especially randoms at these stakes, they will try to get cute with these hands instead of just shoving them. All in all I think it's an easy overshove, 99 or even 88 would be tough, but even then after calculating the pot odds and range it should be slightly +EV. What I also don't understand - why does everyone here make a difference between the format? What does it matter if this is a hyper or a deepstack? The situation is the same. The only reasoning would be future EV to take into account, however we don't have any ICM considerations in this phase, thus no future EV to calculate.
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 218
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the deep stack element affects my M? A 15 minute blind structure would give me a greater M than if it were a hyper, meaning the scenario would be somewhat different depending on the structure? Understanding that I do have a large M figure in any structure, but in 30 minutes if I were to not win a hand my M would be considerably lower in a faster structure. Does that apply here in differing between decision making regarding my future in the tournament?
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
Posted by BeMyATMplz: You all seem to forget about the deadmoney. We can take this situation even if we had less than 50% equity. Also I'd discount AA and KK from his range, most of the time, especially randoms at these stakes, they will try to get cute with these hands instead of just shoving them. All in all I think it's an easy overshove, 99 or even 88 would be tough, but even then after calculating the pot odds and range it should be slightly +EV. What I also don't understand - why does everyone here make a difference between the format? What does it matter if this is a hyper or a deepstack? The situation is the same. The only reasoning would be future EV to take into account, however we don't have any ICM considerations in this phase, thus no future EV to calculate.
I would say the fact it's a deep stack does affect the decision... You have plenty more time to wait for good spots than in a Hyper.. In a Hyper, anything above 50% equity, you need to be getting it in - because you won't get many other chances... In a deep stack, I would be looking for spots with 60% + ...Your tournament life is more important than missing out on a couple % of positive equity.
------------ I really respect your opinions on anything like this BeMyATMplz (and yours too it has to be said tonespoker)...
But @ BeMy... It seems to me you are using cash game principles for Multi-table tournies... like I said, I'll happily pass up on spots where I'm marginally in front to protect my tournament life, whereas in a cash game, it's a mistake to fold even the slightest positive equity...
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
No, both of you are doing a significant mistake by making ICM considerations. Yes yout this is a cashgame princible, because we are far away from the money in this hand, meaning this is pure ChipEV mode. I agree that we probably shouldnt take a close spot that is like +5 chips or so in the long run, because our edge should be bigger overall, but in general everything pre FT (and close to the bubble) should be played pure ChipEV based. I think 18 man SNGs,who I played tens of thousands of, are the easiest to train this. 1st table is always played solely for chip-gaining, while on the FT there are very sick ICM situations. And the same can be applied to 45 mans, 180 mans and of course MTTs as well. A 180 man is basicly a MTT as well or at least there are no factors where the gameplay really differs (at least there is no reason to play them any different). The reason for getting it in wider in hypers is because the deadmoney is bigger (much bigger antes), but if the antes were the same in both formats then our range shouldnt differ either. We should look at every situation hand for hand, and between +EV and -EV the speed doesnt change anything. Very good players playing solely non turbos will also have the same shoving ranges in a specific situation as in a turbo. There is a reason why calculation programms like nash give you no oppprtunity to put in length of blind levels, simply because there is no reason to. Again, either a situation is +EV or it's not. @ tones: your M is calculated by the current hand, in hypers your M will always be lower because of bigger antes, but other than that a M of 8 for example in a hyper should be played the same as a M of 8 in a regular tourney, because its the same risk/reward ratio.
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 2688
Yeah if you guys playing deep and late phase and you get somebody shoving is big stacks like 200 bbs which is extreme but just for you to get the point, he must have a really good hand and feel he has the best hand or it is a stone cold bluff but most likely the former so be wary of calling light when he pushes like this, but if in cash game do take a note and adjust if he shoves light calls lights when he shoves. If not then always call strong against the shove. Anyway good luck mate have fun at the tables!
