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  25-Sep-14, 12:21   #1
When to raise? 0 
tonespoker 
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 21 (M)
Posts: 218
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/10975827_...

Obviously, my river raise is bad, but do I raise any other street? Instead of raising the river scare card (that's only a scare card a very small amount of time), do I raise the flop, the turn?

Assuming I'm ahead up until the river, the K only fills A10, 9 10 or KK, 3 hands I thought pretty unlikely. In this spot, my river jam is obviously the worst decision, but instead of thinking I made a bad play I'm erring on the side of 'that's sick'. I'm obviously not folding, and I don't despise my raise, but Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap!

     
  25-Sep-14, 12:43   #2
  0 
vsemoje 
Joined: Feb '13
Location: Slovenia
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 515
just get it in before river..
guys are calling with top pair all the way so no need for slow play.
And i think this is turbo?

My answer would be : raise flop cause its drawy and make raise big enough u can shove turn.

just my 2 cents

     
  25-Sep-14, 12:46   #3
  0 
tonespoker 
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 21 (M)
Posts: 218
Nah wasn't a turbo, 2.5k start with 10 minute levels.
Wanted to jam turn, but also wanted to give hands exactly like A10 a chance to bluff the last street. I think I played it fine, could have shoved turn but decided not to for previously explained reasoning.

     
  25-Sep-14, 12:50   #4
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 6231
A bit doubious play throughout the hand. You are both a bit shallow to call for set value alone. And if you don't want to raise the flop, and want to give him a little bit more rope, at least raise his weak turn bet here.

     
  25-Sep-14, 12:51   #5
  0 
vsemoje 
Joined: Feb '13
Location: Slovenia
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 515
Posted by tonespoker:
Nah wasn't a turbo, 2.5k start with 10 minute levels.
Wanted to jam turn, but also wanted to give hands exactly like A10 a chance to bluff the last street. I think I played it fine, could have shoved turn but decided not to for previously explained reasoning.


u want to charge them for draws so u have to bet/raise.

     
  25-Sep-14, 13:08   #6
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
His preflop raise had me thinking AJ - AQ, so when he bet the flop the way he did I was thinking flush draw plus he hit the board. I would have reraised the flop stiffly and been ready to shove it in on the turn. By simply flatting him he got to see more cards fairly cheaply and you got very unlucky. Most times flopped trips will hold up.

     
  25-Sep-14, 13:32   #7
  0 
tonespoker 
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 21 (M)
Posts: 218
Only reason to raise flop is to better define his hand IMO. I'm possibly getting action hands like J10 (something he probably wouldnt 3x from early pos though), TT>88, not many hands I can get value from but might continue to bet, assuming that they think I am on a draw, but could fold to aggression.

He's folding worse hands and shoving AJ+ don't see why I should raise flop. I want hands like QJ, KJ or AJ to feel more comfortable/catch 2p or trips.

My aim was to get all his chips in, something that wouldn't happen with A10 on the flop or turn, and if the river bricks it isn't going to happen anyway.

He's folding to any aggression, I get more value from calling from position, if a river bricks he might try to take a stab, something I can get value from. I get no extra value from raising against his hand, and his weak two barreling range.

I still think I played my hand fine, as the K fills more hands that I beat that will still call.

Edited by tonespoker (Thursday, September 25, 2014 @ 13:39 GMT)


     
  25-Sep-14, 14:09   #8
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
You start create a forum thread titled "When to raise?" and question your play throughout

Posted by tonespoker:

Obviously, my river raise is bad, but do I raise any other street? Instead of raising the river scare card (that's only a scare card a very small amount of time), do I raise the flop, the turn?


and then state

Posted by tonespoker:
I still think I played my hand fine


I don't get it. Why did you create this thread if you thought you played fine? If you are lucky some of the truly knowledgeable players on this forum like jessthehuman and Bemyatmplz will weigh in with their opinions, but be ready to swallow your pride because Bemy doesn't mince words.

     
  25-Sep-14, 14:19   #9
  0 
Heskor 
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 2659
Always raise when you think you can get more value from somebody and always raise when you go in as you want to build the pot and extract value if you have good hands preflop! Also raise if you think the other person is bluffing but choose your spot to raise and you can take down the pot. But you have to be able to read the board and so on!

Anyway good luck mate hope you get some good money from those fishes who are sometimes just too damn lucky. Cheers have a good day and hope you get on a good swing!

     
  25-Sep-14, 14:23   #10
  0 
tonespoker 
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 21 (M)
Posts: 218
I have changed my mind multiple times through re-watching the hand and would feel awkward editing after people have replied.

I have reached the conclusion that I played it ok, and am still wondering what people's opinions are on whether or not to raise a street before the river.

When I posted the 'Obviously, my river raise is bad' i was kind of walking myself through the hand rather than explaining it to the forum.

Is a very up and down and generally confusing thread, and that's my bad for posting it like that and I do apologise and am not trying to come off as arragont, but am looking for reasons of why I didn't play my hand correctly, but from my perspective I think I played it ok until people like Bemyatmplz tell me why I am wrong.

     
  25-Sep-14, 15:11   #11
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
The real mistake in that hand was to call preflop. You get by far not the needed implied odds based on stacksize. To setmine you should have at least 1:15 in implied odds, thus don't invest more than 6-7% in effective stacks (yes, this includes villain as well.A
s played flop is totally fine.
Turn is where you should raise. Not to get him off A10, but to extract value from hands like thi, and this turn gave both flush- and straight draws. Best to get value at that street.
I don't see why you think your river raise is bad. There is so much in his range that you're ahead of and that he will call you with. Don't be results oriented too much.

To sum up, postflop was fine, better would have been raising turn but possible to let him barrel too.
However, calling preflop was wrong because of too low implied odds.

     
  25-Sep-14, 15:43   #12
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 2016
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
The real mistake in that hand was to call preflop. You get by far not the needed implied odds based on stacksize. To setmine you should have at least 1:15 in implied odds, thus don't invest more than 6-7% in effective stacks (yes, this includes villain as well.A
s played flop is totally fine.
Turn is where you should raise. Not to get him off A10, but to extract value from hands like thi, and this turn gave both flush- and straight draws. Best to get value at that street.
I don't see why you think your river raise is bad. There is so much in his range that you're ahead of and that he will call you with. Don't be results oriented too much.

To sum up, postflop was fine, better would have been raising turn but possible to let him barrel too.
However, calling preflop was wrong because of too low implied odds.


Again BeMy... I find myself slightly disagreeing with your reasoning (only slightly mind)...

I would certainly have called preflop, as having 1,792 chips is not really any different to having 1,972 chips with the blinds at 30/60 - If I miss the flop, I fold and am almost in exactly the situation I was in before... no harm done. I don't quite understand the logic (though I'm sure there is logic) in saying you need 1:15 in implied odds, when the chance of hitting a set is ~1:7

On that flop, I would certainly raise. I never flat with a set if a flush draw is out there. Can't stand giving someone a free shot at a flush, and if you boat up on the turn with a third spade you'll get paid maximum almost every time.

After flatting on the flop, you really need to be raising the turn - as BeMy says, not to get them off hands, but to get value from a huge range of hands they could have that you have crushed or even drawing dead (with AQ for example).

River raise was fine, although I would have done it earlier - but nothing wrong with the river raise in of itself.


I'm noticing difference between yours and my thinking in a few spots BeMy - I love seeing a different (and educated) point of view Thumbs Up

------------
Posted by mahdrof:
I don't get it. Why did you create this thread if you thought you played fine?


I get it entirely... tones, more than anyone else on here I believe is very eager to listen to other's point of view and seems very eager to improve. Don't discourage this sort of attitude - it's what this site should be all about.


------------
...and one last thing.

Mainly directed at BeMyATMplz, but also that anyone else who wants it...

I will put my email address on The Rigged Place's wall at some point over the weekend as I can't share it on here and there have been a few times it would've been useful to be able to do so.

Edited by yout85 (Thursday, September 25, 2014 @ 15:55 GMT)


     
  25-Sep-14, 16:20   #13
  -1 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
Posted by yout85:
Posted by mahdrof:
I don't get it. Why did you create this thread if you thought you played fine?


I get it entirely... tones, more than anyone else on here I believe is very eager to listen to other's point of view and seems very eager to improve. Don't discourage this sort of attitude - it's what this site should be all about.



I fully agree, the times I have posted hands on this forum I have had extremely valuable feedback from people with all kinds of playing styles. It gave me insite not only into how to play the hand better, but also how other people will play that hand against me in that situation. I would never want to discourage anyone from posting hand history instead of groaning about freeroll suckouts and poker being rigged. I am sorry if I came across a little harshly, I just didn't see why someone would look for advice if they felt they played a hand well. Becoming a grumpy old man I guess Sad

     
  25-Sep-14, 16:20   #14
  0 
Skpmorita 
Joined: Feb '14
Location: Tunisia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 2076
why call call then shove . well the spade flush didnt get there . so you wont get called with busted flush draw . mostly the turn play was the worst . if you decide to just call the flop hoping he would bet again then you must raise the turn or even shove . you should have just call river . why is this considred bad play because you were ahead the whole time and decided to put all your chips in when you are behind . if you shoved turn or flop he would be considered the fish bc he called with just few outs . you made him out play you by giving him cheap turn and river

     
  25-Sep-14, 17:47   #15
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
Posted by yout85:
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
The real mistake in that hand was to call preflop. You get by far not the needed implied odds based on stacksize. To setmine you should have at least 1:15 in implied odds, thus don't invest more than 6-7% in effective stacks (yes, this includes villain as well.A
s played flop is totally fine.
Turn is where you should raise. Not to get him off A10, but to extract value from hands like thi, and this turn gave both flush- and straight draws. Best to get value at that street.
I don't see why you think your river raise is bad. There is so much in his range that you're ahead of and that he will call you with. Don't be results oriented too much.

To sum up, postflop was fine, better would have been raising turn but possible to let him barrel too.
However, calling preflop was wrong because of too low implied odds.


Again BeMy... I find myself slightly disagreeing with your reasoning (only slightly mind)...

I would certainly have called preflop, as having 1,792 chips is not really any different to having 1,972 chips with the blinds at 30/60 - If I miss the flop, I fold and am almost in exactly the situation I was in before... no harm done. I don't quite understand the logic (though I'm sure there is logic) in saying you need 1:15 in implied odds, when the chance of hitting a set is ~1:7

On that flop, I would certainly raise. I never flat with a set if a flush draw is out there. Can't stand giving someone a free shot at a flush, and if you boat up on the turn with a third spade you'll get paid maximum almost every time.

After flatting on the flop, you really need to be raising the turn - as BeMy says, not to get them off hands, but to get value from a huge range of hands they could have that you have crushed or even drawing dead (with AQ for example).

River raise was fine, although I would have done it earlier - but nothing wrong with the river raise in of itself.


I'm noticing difference between yours and my thinking in a few spots BeMy - I love seeing a different (and educated) point of view Thumbs Up

------------
Posted by mahdrof:
I don't get it. Why did you create this thread if you thought you played fine?


I get it entirely... tones, more than anyone else on here I believe is very eager to listen to other's point of view and seems very eager to improve. Don't discourage this sort of attitude - it's what this site should be all about.


------------
...and one last thing.

Mainly directed at BeMyATMplz, but also that anyone else who wants it...

I will put my email address on The Rigged Place's wall at some point over the weekend as I can't share it on here and there have been a few times it would've been useful to be able to do so.


Yes the odds of flopping a set are about 1:7, but if you go with that rule you are acting like you get villains whole stack everytime you flop a set. It depends, maybe because its a freeroll 1:12 is profitable, vs. Good Regs for example I'd even go with 1:20. 1:15 is just an average estimation.
If you calculate it like "180 more or less makes no difference", why not flat 23s in this spot too? Both will be -EV in the long run (obv. 23s much more, but "if it doesnt matter" anyways...)
Point is you shouldn't always look at the specific situation, that's just the same like tones questioning his river raise. If you flat this hand 1000 times you will end up down with this play in this specific situation, and longterm profit comes from longterm profitable decisions.
Why would you raise this flop? Iirc it was rainbow (on my mobile now so can't check), and this is just a continuation bet. Chances are villain has air, lets say he has AK, why raise? Why not give him the chance to either bluff turn or to hit a top pair? I don't see the necessity or a good reasoning to raise flop, his cbet is big enough that we have the whole stack in by the river, and if he has a flushdraw (in case flop was indeed not rainbow) then he's gonna have a flushdraw with 2

overs - if we raise to 500 to give him the chance to spazz around then I see very few villains folding, so we might as well flat flop and see if villain barrels again. His small turn bet is another reason why we have to raise, obv. the bigger the pot we build the easier it will be to get villains whole stack in OTR, and his turn bet is just a bit too small for that. But generally, if villains barrel, dont scare them away if not necessary.

     
  26-Sep-14, 10:50   #16
  -1 
tonespoker 
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 21 (M)
Posts: 218
mahdrof, I acctidentally gave you a thumbs down I meant to give you a thumbs up, apologies!

     
  26-Sep-14, 12:11   #17
  0 
jeffaboy 
Joined: Jan '14
Location: Netherlands
Age: 20 (M)
Posts: 863
I would have reraised the flop to see what happens and if he did another barrel on the turn i would of shoved it there Smile

     
  26-Sep-14, 12:30   #18
  0 
pokershark74 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 831
Posted by vsemoje:
just get it in before river..
guys are calling with top pair all the way so no need for slow play.
And i think this is turbo?

My answer would be : raise flop cause its drawy and make raise big enough u can shove turn.

just my 2 cents


second this

     
  26-Sep-14, 13:14   #19
  0 
BeMyATMplz 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 1854
I've watched the hand on my computer again now.
So flop had indeed a flushdraw, however I still see no reason to raise flop.
Just because he bets flop (normal cbet) doesn't mean he has anything more than air.
AKdd could be as likely as AA if he is halfway decent. Why would we want to raise and get him off such a hand?
His bet size is also big enough to play for stacks after the flop.
So probably max. EV line postflop is:
Flat Flop
Raise turn small or just get it in (for max. value raise to about 800-900)
Get it in on any river

     
  26-Sep-14, 13:18   #20
  +1 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
Posted by tonespoker:
mahdrof, I acctidentally gave you a thumbs down I meant to give you a thumbs up, apologies!

no problem, I just gave you a thumbs down too so now we are even! LOL Blink

     
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