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  10-Oct-14, 21:07   #1
Folding KK -1 
Phisix 

Joined: May '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 2216
I am talking about the best known hand set up KK vs AA. About 90% of the time when I have KK re-raise someone and he pushes all in and I call if it's not too much, the other guy always has AA. I finally realized this today after running into an AA with this same tell today for the 10th time this week(I thought about it first and said I should fold but called because he only had $3 and I had $7 and I was right it was AA).

Should we be folding this 100% of the time when they have a lot of money left, or even if they have a small percentage of our own stack.

     
  10-Oct-14, 22:13   #2
  -4 
Twistyoursou 
This post is hidden due to too many bad ratings! View the post anyway...

     
  10-Oct-14, 23:45   #3
  0 
arsenej1 

Joined: Mar '09
Location: Canada
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 3020
I play kk like i dont give a sh! T if someone has AA preflop. ..obviously slow down if ace hits on flop...but cant play kk scared preflop.

     
  11-Oct-14, 00:28   #4
  0 
MonoPolygamy 

Joined: Apr '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 145
Posted by Phisix:
I am talking about the best known hand set up KK vs AA. About 90% of the time when I have KK re-raise someone and he pushes all in and I call if it's not too much, the other guy always has AA. I finally realized this today after running into an AA with this same tell today for the 10th time this week(I thought about it first and said I should fold but called because he only had $3 and I had $7 and I was right it was AA).

Should we be folding this 100% of the time when they have a lot of money left, or even if they have a small percentage of our own stack.

Folding KK PREFLOP! it was good fold.
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/10833988_...
not so sure about cash games, I am much more into tournaments, but i guess it depends of readings, prevous notes on player etc. I wouldn't agree that it is in 90%, because many people would still go reraises/calling even with QQ or AQ, depending on their stack, your table image etc.
I folded the above ahnd at the final table after 14hrs playing and was right about it, guy had AA. I folded due to his previous moves... managed to chop later (as 2nd next to chip leader Big Smile).
Now, I know that many people would say that this is stupid, but trust me, you didnt play with this guy...especially not deep - 14 hrs... it took me 4 mins to fold... I finally, result is what counts. He was out 3 hand later with KK... to be honest against AQ , not AA.
i am not the biggest fan of DN, but I ll always remember "Dont get married to your KK"
---
EDIT: Speaking of devil... I just literately had a hand (BAD PLAY [ Smile|, didnt re-raise preflop, wanted to make a trap, just a minute ago]
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/11209247_... Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap!

Edited by MonoPolygamy (Saturday, October 11, 2014 @ 00:41 GMT)


     
  11-Oct-14, 03:31   #5
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by Phisix:
I am talking about the best known hand set up KK vs AA. About 90% of the time when I have KK re-raise someone and he pushes all in and I call if it's not too much, the other guy always has AA. I finally realized this today after running into an AA with this same tell today for the 10th time this week(I thought about it first and said I should fold but called because he only had $3 and I had $7 and I was right it was AA).

Should we be folding this 100% of the time when they have a lot of money left, or even if they have a small percentage of our own stack.



This was a couple years back, but I was playing a $50 Super Deep Stack MTT (think something like 20K starting stack, 20min blinds and first level was 10/20) - so seriously deep stack and slow blinds, basically a long, slow game. Anyway - I'd been looking forward to it and on about the 3rd or 4th hand I get dealt KK and got into a pre-flop raising war and the only hand that made any sense for the villain, if they weren't a total spazz, was AA - nothing else made sense given the blind level and stack sizes, at any rate - after we'd re-raised about 1/3 or so of our stacks he shoved and I called because "you can't fold KK pre flop" and I've thought about it a LOT since and I'm pretty sure I should have folded.

There's not often in a regular (non satellite, DoN,etc) game that you should fold KK pre, but I suppose there are moments, when you really can just about narrow the villains hand down to AA.

     
  11-Oct-14, 05:59   #6
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 6233
Bingo. For 100 BB there is rarely a justification for folding kings. But things change, if we are realy deep. Cause the amount of players that overplay a smaller pocket pair or AK will thrink a lot.

     
  11-Oct-14, 06:40   #7
  0 
MonoPolygamy 

Joined: Apr '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 145
this morning...how to play against KK. It was obvious that he has KK. This is how I played to maximize the value.
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/11211105_...

     
  11-Oct-14, 07:56   #8
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by shokaku:
Bingo. For 100 BB there is rarely a justification for folding kings. But things change, if we are realy deep. Cause the amount of players that overplay a smaller pocket pair or AK will thrink a lot.


Yes, I think once you get 500BB+ (especially in cash games, but also in non-micro stakes tourneys), as people continue to indicate their willingness to get their whole stack in, you can rapidly narrow their hand to the nuts.

     
  11-Oct-14, 08:19   #9
  0 
doubletop777 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 5552
I dont think i could ever fold to one player in these situations especially in cash games. I can see a time to fold them in tournament play if we are very close to the bubble but in cash games you would have to drag me off the hand!!

     
  11-Oct-14, 10:23   #10
  0 
Twistyoursou 

Joined: Jan '14
Location: Portugal
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 271
At 2NL and 5NL ZOOM ONLY at pokerstars I still think it is okay against some players

     
  11-Oct-14, 14:14   #11
  0 
Heskor 
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 2659
It has becomes a very nitty shove all in nowadays in the online poker room especially at the lower, they will only shove or raise if they have KK and AA and they will even fold sometimes and you have to adjust to their playing style and only push with QQ+, i do now and will fold TT and maybe call with JJ if i feel good and on a good streak lol, anyway good luck mate hope you crush them and make some good money, playing and breaking even better this than losing!

     
  11-Oct-14, 14:51   #12
  +1 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by doubletop777:
I can see a time to fold them in tournament play if we are very close to the bubble but in cash games you would have to drag me off the hand!!



That is dumb. In MTT, when you're close to the bubble, you're never deep enough to justify folding KK.. That is just playing like a p***y.

In cash game, if somebody shoves 500BB (5 buyins) you really have to consider what they're doing that with. Likewise, at the BEGINNING (no where near the bubble) of a deep-stacked MTT, you really have to consider the hands someone would be getting their whole stack in with.

But near the bubble of an MTT ? Never. Getting KK near the bubble of an MTT is like being kissed by God. MTT payouts are super top-heavy, you're aiming for a final table finish, or if there's only 100 or so players, then a top 3 finish even, basically - you're playing to win, not to min-cash.

If you're the sort of p***y who folds in incorrect spots because you're near the bubble, you will NEVER beat poker, never. Poker is definitely not a game for pussies.

     
  11-Oct-14, 16:16   #13
  0 
Phisix 

Joined: May '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 2216
QQ/KK/AA I will usually push with them on the bubble if the time is right. AA is always going though unless tons of people donk before me.

     
  11-Oct-14, 17:51   #14
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
I guess it depends on the situation, but i rarely folding them.And
i have lost a fair amount with them. The things that happens more when i lose with
them is someone hitting the A Smile mostly on flop.

     
  11-Oct-14, 17:56   #15
  0 
Phisix 

Joined: May '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 2216
I was actually just talking about cash tables since only a handful of cards are pushed all in unless it's really idiot players. MTT's are always different when I have KK though.

     
  11-Oct-14, 21:01   #16
  0 
MarcWinz 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 644
Posted by reficiamus:
this morning...how to play against KK. It was obvious that he has KK. This is how I played to maximize the value.
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/11211105_...


Nice play, at what point did you know he had KK? Was it from previous plays? Or just a feeling, really interested to know.

I agree with others who have said KK is a must all-in pre? I think it just sucks when you run into AA - its variance.......................

GL all

Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  12-Oct-14, 08:28   #17
  +2 
LIKEIT27 
Joined: Jul '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 704
Sooo 90% you have k/k you get beaten by a/a ?

Wow you must have all the badrun from every player Big Smile

Lol 90% you know when pokerplayers read this they laugh you understand that?

Its crazy what youre saying and i wouldnt bellieve it in a million times,
Show us you last 20 K/K Hands Blink

     
  12-Oct-14, 09:22   #18
  0 
MonoPolygamy 

Joined: Apr '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 145
Posted by MarcWinz:
Posted by reficiamus:
this morning...how to play against KK. It was obvious that he has KK. This is how I played to maximize the value.
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/11211105_...


Nice play, at what point did you know he had KK? Was it from previous plays? Or just a feeling, really interested to know.

I agree with others who have said KK is a must all-in pre? I think it just sucks when you run into AA - its variance.......................

GL all

Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

OK, reasonable question, here is why...
first of all this is from PS Premier League, with a really nice ($30.000)monthly fund and a limited number of players (usually around 1000 active, theoretical max 1400, I think).
The system foreseen something like ATP in tennis, you are getting negative or positive points depending when you finish, but it is not linear ( it ia bit complicated formula, too long to bother you here about it).
So, nobody wants to get out in early stages, due to ~30 negative points, which to regain, you have to finish next tournament at least in top 10%, which is a hell of a job.

Though competition. Everyone is solid, 99% is really super tight. I have played with him before several times (leagues is 4 times a day, so in a week, you get to know all major players and you have played with them at least 3-4 times since you change 4-5 tables during the tournament untill the FT).

90% of the time raising is only 2BB, rarely 2,5(e.g. me), 3 BB could be ssen here and there, in early stages (which this was - first hour), but 3BBB or 4BB is a 99% a pair. AK, AQ, Axs, KQs...would be 2BB -2.5 MAX. 4 is definitely a pair - he doesnt want to see a flop. And - it is a high par, he wouldnt risk 4BB for smaller and he wouldnt pu it if he would folad seeing allin raising his 4BBB or he would but thats what he is doing, calling you 'put all in or go'. It is extremely high raise. However, he might fold.
I am flat calling, he would probably called all in, BUT NOT necessarily - I've seen this happened before, as explained above... few times I have seen KK folded with open cards. He is on 6K as welll as me (2.5K is starting stack, meaning a decent first hour) , so thats why i just call- he might have folded for all in.Post flop he is betting 500 too get some info from me, if I hit the flop and in order to extract the value, I am NOT calling all in again, but raise in oreder to represent A9. Calling would mean two hearts, raise all in could scared him off for a hands like 88 or 99. My raise was supposed to represent A9 or JJ, QQ...
There is no heart at the turn, and he must have a strong bet now in order not to see one on the river and 2/3 of put he bets (correct move, I would say in any other situation). due to pot commitment, its ok to all in now, because he cannot quit anymore....thats it.

This the moment.

If he had bet 500 again, I would put him on 2 hearts, trying to control the pot. With 88 or 99 or 33 (but he wouldnt bet 4BB preflop), he would just make another small bet - 500 or 1000 to extract the value.

Now - that must be an over pair, but so strong that he is willing to commit 2/3 of pot , i.e 1/2 of his stack - this is not TT, JJ or QQ, so it is KK. Pot commitment is doing rest of the story. Get it?

But trust me - THERE IS A possibilty that he would fold if I rased all in on first , flop bet, when he raised, as well ther is (slimer although) posibillity that he would fold at this stage of the torunament KK preflop.

hope this explains. sorry if i was confusing a bit...but it is a very strange play at this tournaments, very specific (and I enjoy it Big Smile)
rgds



------------
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by doubletop777:
I can see a time to fold them in tournament play if we are very close to the bubble but in cash games you would have to drag me off the hand!!



That is dumb. In MTT, when you're close to the bubble, you're never deep enough to justify folding KK.. That is just playing like a p***y.

In cash game, if somebody shoves 500BB (5 buyins) you really have to consider what they're doing that with. Likewise, at the BEGINNING (no where near the bubble) of a deep-stacked MTT, you really have to consider the hands someone would be getting their whole stack in with.

But near the bubble of an MTT ? Never. Getting KK near the bubble of an MTT is like being kissed by God. MTT payouts are super top-heavy, you're aiming for a final table finish, or if there's only 100 or so players, then a top 3 finish even, basically - you're playing to win, not to min-cash.

If you're the sort of p***y who folds in incorrect spots because you're near the bubble, you will NEVER beat poker, never. Poker is definitely not a game for pussies.


Well, i dont consider my self a p***y, but this was a deep stack (hand above with folding KK), playing 16 hrs already - level 27, 30 mins. It is a$2.75, 500$ guaranteed, somewhere arround 1000 was a total.
If I had pay this - I would got out 8th (at least risked to get out) with $20. Why to risk - I will wait another hour for MY hand, not to play HIS. So, i folded. The guy was out (bad beat, three hand later), 4 of us chop the final prize - I was out with $130. I think this explains why.
Do I consider myself a p***y? Hmmm... dont know, take a look...
http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hands/Boom/11211320_957...
https://www.pokerminds.com/flashclient/gamehistory.php?...

Edited by MonoPolygamy (Sunday, October 12, 2014 @ 09:51 GMT)


     
  12-Oct-14, 09:57   #19
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by reficiamus:
Well, i dont consider my self a p***y, but this was a deep stack (hand above with folding KK), playing 16 hrs already - level 27, 30 mins. It is a$2.75, 500$ guaranteed, somewhere arround 1000 was a total.
If I had pay this - I would got out 8th (at least risked to get out) with $20. Why to risk - I will wait another hour for MY hand, not to play HIS. So, i folded. The guy was out (bad beat, three hand later), 4 of us chop the final prize - I was out with $130. I think this explains why.
Do I consider myself a p***y? Hmmm... dont know, take a look...
http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hands/Boom/11211320_957...
https://www.pokerminds.com/flashclient/gamehistory.php?...


Well, it wasn't you that I called a p***y. But if you're folding KK in mid-late MTT stages, just to hold on to a min-medium cash, then you're a total p***y.

     
  12-Oct-14, 10:04   #20
  0 
MonoPolygamy 

Joined: Apr '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 145
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by reficiamus:
Well, i dont consider my self a p***y, but this was a deep stack (hand above with folding KK), playing 16 hrs already - level 27, 30 mins. It is a$2.75, 500$ guaranteed, somewhere arround 1000 was a total.
If I had pay this - I would got out 8th (at least risked to get out) with $20. Why to risk - I will wait another hour for MY hand, not to play HIS. So, i folded. The guy was out (bad beat, three hand later), 4 of us chop the final prize - I was out with $130. I think this explains why.
Do I consider myself a p***y? Hmmm... dont know, take a look...
http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hands/Boom/11211320_957...
https://www.pokerminds.com/flashclient/gamehistory.php?...


Well, it wasn't you that I called a p***y. But if you're folding KK in mid-late MTT stages, just to hold on to a min-medium cash, then you're a total p***y.

I agree for that.
Didn't take it it wrong, no worries - just tried to explain that there might be situations when is justified. but, I fully agree - NEVER play for few spots better, few cents more! WIN, FT or nothing (except in satellites, obviously).

     
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