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  4-Dec-14, 10:06   #1
Getting rivered in style 0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/11970898_...



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BTW, this is textbook example of how NOT to play aces double suited while in position in PLO. I had my reasons for playing this hand like this, none of them good. My feeling however is that my opponent would have flatted any reraises (minimum), and the outcome would have been the same. Still, not good form.

Edited by mahdrof (Thursday, December 04, 2014 @ 12:10 GMT)


     
  4-Dec-14, 12:23   #2
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3113
you will get back in no time...

     
  4-Dec-14, 13:04   #3
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by mahdrof:
BTW, this is textbook example of how NOT to play aces double suited while in position in PLO. I had my reasons for playing this hand like this, none of them good.

Why is that? You had the best hand (top set) on the flop, where all the money went in. What's more it was the absolute best hand (i.e. no better hand was possible), so your opponent could just have draws to beat you. I don't know much about PLO, but I would think you got the money in good...?

     
  4-Dec-14, 13:17   #4
  +1 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
Posted by marqis:
Posted by mahdrof:
BTW, this is textbook example of how NOT to play aces double suited while in position in PLO. I had my reasons for playing this hand like this, none of them good.

Why is that? You had the best hand (top set) on the flop, where all the money went in. What's more it was the absolute best hand (i.e. no better hand was possible), so your opponent could just have draws to beat you. I don't know much about PLO, but I would think you got the money in good...?

I let him see a relatively cheap flop with a very strong hand, something you should never do at any card game IMO. The fact I hit so strong on the flop means nothing, because so many players play any two cards (any four cards at PLO), that you can easily find yourself in a bad position if you are not re-raising with a hand like this in position. In this instance I got lucky and hit top set, but he flopped big flush and straight draws, then I got what I thought was the lock when the board paired on the turn and then lost against the very rare royal flush on the river.

     
  4-Dec-14, 14:32   #5
  0 
Skpmorita 
Joined: Feb '14
Location: Tunisia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 2076
he was ahead on the flop but only by small %
the turn kind of crushed him
but that one outer is sick on the river

neither player played it bad
kind of the flop played itself

i know that you should have 3-bet pre
i think he was calling anyway

well just another bad beat , just forget about it and good luck at the tables

     
  4-Dec-14, 14:41   #6
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
Posted by Skpmorita:
he was ahead on the flop but only by small %
the turn kind of crushed him
but that one outer is sick on the river

neither player played it bad
kind of the flop played itself

i know that you should have 3-bet pre
i think he was calling anyway

well just another bad beat , just forget about it and good luck at the tables

This is exactly the way I feel. I posted it because you don't get rivered very often by a royal flush.

     
  4-Dec-14, 18:23   #7
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2096
Thing is, when you re-raise pre flop with aces, you're pretty much telling them what you have (unless you do it often). So I actually like the flat call pre flop even though I would've probably 3bet it myself. Set over set isn't that rare in PLO and it's pretty much impossible to dodge. Also if you flop nut flush or nut flush draw it makes the hand pretty easy to play so I think smooth call pre flop is the path of least variance. Which isn't a bad thing in PLO Blink

Hand was played well by both players, sick turn & river Smile

     
  4-Dec-14, 18:48   #8
  0 
leno1 
Joined: Oct '14
Location: Germany
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 428
Posted by mahdrof:
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/11970898_...



------------
BTW, this is textbook example of how NOT to play aces double suited while in position in PLO. I had my reasons for playing this hand like this, none of them good. My feeling however is that my opponent would have flatted any reraises (minimum), and the outcome would have been the same. Still, not good form.


Well man, I am not quite sure, why this should be a textbook example of how NOT to play aces double suited while in position in PLO. In my opinion this is allright.Maybe you could have reraised preflop.

     
  4-Dec-14, 19:01   #9
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
Posted by TheMachineQC:
Thing is, when you re-raise pre flop with aces, you're pretty much telling them what you have (unless you do it often). So I actually like the flat call pre flop even though I would've probably 3bet it myself. Set over set isn't that rare in PLO and it's pretty much impossible to dodge. Also if you flop nut flush or nut flush draw it makes the hand pretty easy to play so I think smooth call pre flop is the path of least variance. Which isn't a bad thing in PLO Blink

Hand was played well by both players, sick turn & river Smile

I understand what you mean, but you are assuming that you are playing against someone who knows how to play poker, and thankfully at zoom PLO they are few and far between. So many players play random hands at PLO that they will call just about anything, so to slow play aces preflop is not my preferred way to go. I prefer to raise and reraise preflop rather than flatting, build a pot and make it expensive for them to draw to two pair when they have hit a pair of deuces on the flop and they want to see the turn.

     
  4-Dec-14, 19:12   #10
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2096
Yeah, you have to be ready to give up the hand if you don't hit when you don't 3bet which sucks ^^

     
  4-Dec-14, 19:21   #11
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
It still surprises me how many players at PLO will get caught up in the middle of a preflop shoving match between KKxx and AAxx, create a 3-way all-in pot and end up taking it with essentially random cards. Of course when they don't they look like idiots but hey, at cash games I will take all the donks you can throw at me. Smile

In this case my opponent had very good cards for calling a reraise if I had thrown it at him.

     
  4-Dec-14, 20:09   #12
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3113
I am not expert at PLO... I played couple of times... but I dont see you did anything wrong... just bad river card... as I said you will get back in no time Blink

     
  4-Dec-14, 23:03   #13
  0 
av1966 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 1500
That hand was sick
You can think all that you want but for me that was a very very bad beat not to often you see combo eveN on PLO
Mahdrof was just a bad beat ,it´s Aww crap! Aww crap! but you will bounce back and win lots of Dollar Dollar

     
  4-Dec-14, 23:06   #14
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10016
That was very unlucky there. I wondered why he reraised in flop
chasing. Could have called your reraise there and thats it.
SIlly chasers getting rewarded Smile
That would have been the end of the day, playing poker, for me.
Good luck in your next games.

     
  5-Dec-14, 00:31   #15
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2096
Standard play in PLO, most PLO players are agressive. He hit a wrap and second nut flush draw. PLO maths are different than hold'em, with draws you can be ahead of your opponent. . If all his draws are live, he's slightly ahead of a made hand like mahdrof's. He even had runner runner hearts, I'm pretty sure he was slightly ahead of the nuts here % wise, which is impossible in hold'em.

     
  6-Dec-14, 00:43   #16
  0 
tonespoker 
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 21 (M)
Posts: 218
Would be really interested to see the %ages preflop and on the flop. Understandably it is zoom, but did you have anything on this player? I don't hate the flat, but makes your hand really difficult to play post flop. What would you see as reasons to 3 bet, other than just having AAxx double suited?

     
  6-Dec-14, 01:38   #17
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2096
AA pre flop is the nuts, so 3bet is the standard play just like in Hold'em. Being double suited just makes the hand a lot easier to 3bet because there's a lot more flops that are gonna be great for this hand. But like I said, if you almost never 3bet, there's no point in 3betting here because it could either scare the other player from hands that could pay you or make him put you on KKxx or AAxx which makes you easier to read post flop.

When both players hit the flop like that though the hand plays itself, no matter what the pre flop action was Blink But still, I'd rather have mahdroff's hand here because if his second nut flush draw isn't live he's in trouble...

     
  6-Dec-14, 02:49   #18
  0 
exostenz 
Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 109
I hate that every time someone gets aces in omaha and gets it in preflop against me they win and everytime @ I @ get the Aces and get it in preflop I lose to that same person??? I think I am on that downwards slope atm lol xx

     
  6-Dec-14, 05:46   #19
  0 
tonespoker 
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 21 (M)
Posts: 218
I haven't played PLO in a while, but found that 3betting (especially in 5PL zoom) to be quite redundant with hands like AAxx. I always did anyway, but didn't necessarily have a post flop plan. I feel that planning your moves before you make then in PLO to be really important. In multi way pots situations, most hands have some similar equity/blockers for both hands. Obviously, you want to play the largest pot possible preflop with these hands, but that's hardly ever the case unless someone else is playing AAxx. I would prefer a 3 bet, as I think flitting with hands of this calibre should be left to situations where you have a read on villains tendencies. You get rid of a fair amount of his range, and if he decided to flat he'll be forced to play from OOP. 3 betting gets fold equity, the potential to stack off preflop, and chops a lot of his QQxx, 5689 type hands etc (assuming he isn't like me in PLO and is capable of folding potential wraps).

I'm in my ipad so it's a real bitch to get up hand converter, but I'd really like to see preflop equity stats. I have a little problem with the way villan played it post flop too, but once you pot it he is pretty much committed based on his EV, even without the nut flush draw. A raise to $7-8 can still allow him to flat, but once you pot he has way too much equity to fold given the pot size. But he might just 3 bet jam and you have to continue. He has the wrap, and the second nut flush draw, but his hand can potentially be his downfall. The wrap takes away some of his outs, hero is doing this with a pretty limited range that DEFINATELY includes a wrap+nut flush draw, sets, TP, sets + flush draw etc? it's pretty fair to assume that hero COULD have blockers to villains draws, but like I said earlier, heros pot bet makes the pot way too big to just flat. I think a 2.5-3x flop raise might have been enough for him to consider flatting, but if he's shoving this hand regardless then all of what I've said is redundant.

I'm DEFINATELY not knocking your play mahdrof (except maybe the flat preflop but I do understand it, especially in zoom PLO), but you basically made the hands play themselves post flop, where you could have taken it down on preflop, or on the turn when the board pairs (assuming he flats your flop raise, and folds to all paired board turns). This is all assuming villan knows a little bit about poker, and given the stack sizes (some are huge for 25PL zoom) it doesn't seem really fishy.

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Editing my claim of AAxx raises being redundant preflop, meaning that people will come along with almost anything anyway, and shove to your lead on the flop where you have to fold almost all hands that don't hit hard/have really good drawing equity.

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Ok so it's 60/40 preflop and 50/50 on the flop. Hands playing themselves (assuming ya'll both know how to calculate EV). Disregard hand analysis, acquire downvotes

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Down votes for me of course.

Edited by tonespoker (Saturday, December 06, 2014 @ 05:53 GMT)


     
  6-Dec-14, 08:00   #20
  0 
jsikonja 

Joined: Mar '14
Location: Slovenia
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 255
Cant rly predict much in Omaha, i always play such cards all in or as much chips into the game preflop as possible, but in pot limit that is only possible if opponents reraise, to avoid some lower straights or such. FH happens often, Royal Flush not rly that often. If i go play with simple bet and on flop there is no A or flush, then it ussualy doesnt end up well,whole table may go call that small bet and someone has at least two pairs for sure or his own set of KK QQ JJ 1010, which can end up in FH. Have bad experience with Simple set on flop, ussualy doesnt hold till river unlike in texas holdem where you can start smiling wild if it happens.

Edited by jsikonja (Saturday, December 06, 2014 @ 08:12 GMT)


     
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