got a question.. how should you play when you call in Position with hands like K-Q or A-J+ (no-pairs) and go heads up and miss the Flop.
When you know your opponents would c-bet every single time or raise with trash anyway?
In cash games I would just play the odds, but what do I do in Sit-n-go middle phase? since a c-bet very often means betting 1/3 of your stack (when you're not a big-stack of course)
Edited by LebronHEAT (20 December 2014 @ 16:53 GMT)
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Posted by LebronHEAT: Hi,
got a question.. how should you play when you call in Position with hands like K-Q or A-J+
That's something that should very rarely happen. Most of the time during the middle phase already, you'll be raising/3betting most hands. Usually calling preflop isn't really an option (unless some weird stack setup has come up, like you and villain both already double stacked). The range you mentioned is almost always strong enough to 3bet shove. If you do try to get fancy like you described, the problems you mentioned will come up. Especially if you play microstakes: keep it simple.
If you find yourself raising preflop and get flat called, and your cbet is 1/3 of your stack, then there's probably a problem with your betsizing (either preflop, postflop, or both). The optimal play is to change your raisesize preflop to 2-2.5x at max. preflop once your effective stack gets shallow (under 20BB), I presonally prefer 2-2.1x. This will allow you more room to play if a postflop situation comes up.
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I find in sit n goes people call with anything, a single pair of 2's or anything...
I try to bluff or go for high card but personal experience usually ends up with someone haveing some sort of pair. Also I find alot of people chase to the river no matter what they have in their hand.
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And at that point when you have invested 1/2 your stack and depending on blind sizes your either obligated to continue or suffer being stuck with low stack at the table grasping for air....and typically the donk comes ahead by the river. I find Sit n goes like this and tend to play really tight until I get a read on some people. I just hate the calling stations that play every hand so its hard to figure out their range and sometimes they shove with the worst of hands....its can be frustrating!
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Don't invest 1/2 of your stack with a hand you're not comfortable with then. Always adapt to the specific situation. If you take all these things into consideration then there's a simple adjustment: don't bluff.
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it is very simple to play in this phaze : so you dont have to complicate your way to the prize doing stupid things . you must play straight in position answer with push to people who has big statistics on steal .
yeah but this will end up in getting your blinds stolen always. and everytime you gonna check, they will bluff you but you can't call. And when you bet they just gonna fold.
And since you miss the Flop 2/3 times they will take the money 2/3 times. In this way you will lose your money as well. It will just take a little bit longer..
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Posted by host85: push to people who has big statistics on steal .
Yup that's a very good point. Also the other way around - if you are on the button for example with 2 regs who have very tight stats, you can raise any2 cards profitably.
Also use SNGWizto study shoving/calling ranges, it's super important because if you play the early game correctly then you won't very often have a good stack at the beginning of the early game.
Most people say the late phase is where the money is in SNGs, but I kinda disagree, the mid game is just as important IMO. The bigger your edge in the mid game is, the greater your edge will be in the late phase because you will have chipped up more on average, meaning you can put ICM pressure in the late phase (very important).
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Posted by LebronHEAT: yeah but this will end up in getting your blinds stolen always. and everytime you gonna check, they will bluff you but you can't call. And when you bet they just gonna fold.
And since you miss the Flop 2/3 times they will take the money 2/3 times. In this way you will lose your money as well. It will just take a little bit longer..
Not true at all. If you are heads up postflop with a fish who folds super rarely, and you miss the flop, then what do you achieve by betting? Every move you do, let it be folding, calling, raising etc., is something you should do for a reason. If your move makes no sense then THAT's burning money. I have a (for you at least probably) considerbly low cbet % of 48% btw., most good SNG regs (speaking of turbos at least, for non turbos it might be higher because of more postflop play) also have only 50-60%
Edited by BeMyATMplz (20 December 2014 @ 17:59 GMT)
Number 1: Guy wants to steal with K-6. I re-raise with Q-Q. He hits K and I lose Number 2: The same. A-9 I re-raise with J-J he hits A, I lose. Number 3: short-stack shoves with K-J and I call with A-J. He rivers a street, I lose, but have 1K chips left
This is basically what happens in every sit-n-go.
In total 1 guy folded and 3 called and as described I lost them all 3. Is it normal that they will call so often?
Edited by LebronHEAT (20 December 2014 @ 18:51 GMT)
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I was more talking about loose steals in a case like: You are on the BTN with 15BB stack, the blinds are both passive players/regs, both over 10BB (under 10BB the 3bet range loosens up a lot), then you can minraise any2 profitably because they will fold often enough to risk 2BB to win 1.5BB.
If you really lose as often in such hands as you describe then it's simply a downswing that will go by. If you are a winning player you will win over the long term (the long term can take some time to happen though), so if you believe you have a big edge in the games you play then just keep doing what you think you're good at. If it's the case, you'll be profitable, but don't feel ashamed if it takes some time (speaking of a few hundred SNGs), that happens to everyone and will happen to you very often if you keep playing, even if you're a profitable player.
Okay good advice. But what if let's say there are 4-6 players left in the middle Phase and 4/5 5/6 are donks? This happens like in 1-2/4 sit-n-goes in the low stakes, I see this happen a lot, since donks like to go all-in early in the sit-n-go and well.. sometimes they suck out the other player and so it happens that there are only donks left sometimes.
Most of the times, if not every time this kind of players will call any 2 when they are BB. And they often donk-bet the flop or the turn, when you checked a missed flop.
even if its only 1-2/4 sit-n-go, it's still lost cash. how would I hanlde this since I can't really read their range.
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Posted by LebronHEAT: Okay good advice. But what if let's say there are 4-6 players left in the middle Phase and 4/5 5/6 are donks? This happens like in 1-2/4 sit-n-goes in the low stakes, I see this happen a lot, since donks like to go all-in early in the sit-n-go and well.. sometimes they suck out the other player and so it happens that there are only donks left sometimes.
Most of the times, if not every time this kind of players will call any 2 when they are BB. And they often donk-bet the flop or the turn, when you checked a missed flop.
even if its only 1-2/4 sit-n-go, it's still lost cash. how would I hanlde this since I can't really read their range.
If players behind you are very bad then just play ABC strategy, standard ranges, bet postflop only if you have it, don't bluff, don't get fancy and so on. If you play vs. bad players just play pure value poker, that will be the most profitable way to go. With advanced play (exploitive strategy) you can increase your winrate vs. regulars/players who play "proper" poker, but a donk can't be exploited. Even if you fold 10 hands in a row, don't feel like you have to get agressive, look at every hand individually and do what's the most profitable thing in that specific hand. If you get hands like 53o, 28o etc. 10 hands in a row that's just unluck and can't be changed. Don't forget if you're on the bubble and play vs. 3 donks that play very aggro against each other, you're basicly earning money by folding & them donking their chips around (because chances are the bubble will burst by them taking risks and you taking no risk at all).
cool, gonna start 3 sit-n-goes now and see how to take changes to my game
------------ okay man I don't know what to do.
One thing changed. I had a couple of chips more for the later game. But when it comes to the last 4 or 5 it will all stay the same.
the latest examples (all bubble all-ins. most by getting called from a lucky donk with a big-stack)
1: J-J to 2-3 suited with a flush 2: won with 10-10 against J-10 (almost flush) with trips as short-stack. Later shove with K-K lose to K-K Flush 3: Lost regular Flip 4: Lost another regular Flip.. of course 5: Full house lost to higher Full House 6: Straight loses to Flush
But there were more before. Now I play my last 1 in a sit-n-go. Looks good for now, but I guess I will lose the Bubble again.
Got another 15 Bucks laying around here, but I am not really sure if I want really invest them again into Full Tilt...
I really don't know what to do anymore, this is the 3. week in a row that this is happening...
Bad Luck + Donks = No Bueno
------------ In the 1 dollar sit-n-go this Hand:
I have A-J second to act.
first to act with 7.5 BB shoves I have a little above 15 BB (second place) with 5 players left. What do I do?
BTW, Just lost the hand after it. Got A-J again, but offsuited. short-stacks limp all. I shove. 1 call. Q-J. Turn is Q. But at least he was only short-stack and I still got 10 BB..
Edited by LebronHEAT (21 December 2014 @ 05:17 GMT)
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Posted by Tony_MON7ANA: CANT FUCKING COMPLAIN IF I FUCKING GOT CALLED BY FUCKING AA 10 TIMES IN A FUCKING 30 GAMES WHAT A MOTHER FUCKING JOKE GUESS MY SPACE BUTTON IS FUCKING BROKE GO FUCKYOUSELF POKER IS NOT MY FUCKING GAME GOODBYE
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How you should you play when you call in Position with hands like K-Q or A-J+ (no-pairs) and go heads up and miss the Flop is extremely depending on the playing style of your opponent. Bet a tight player, check or fold a loose one.
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Posted by LebronHEAT: cool, gonna start 3 sit-n-goes now and see how to take changes to my game
------------ okay man I don't know what to do.
One thing changed. I had a couple of chips more for the later game. But when it comes to the last 4 or 5 it will all stay the same.
the latest examples (all bubble all-ins. most by getting called from a lucky donk with a big-stack)
1: J-J to 2-3 suited with a flush 2: won with 10-10 against J-10 (almost flush) with trips as short-stack. Later shove with K-K lose to K-K Flush 3: Lost regular Flip 4: Lost another regular Flip.. of course 5: Full house lost to higher Full House 6: Straight loses to Flush
But there were more before. Now I play my last 1 in a sit-n-go. Looks good for now, but I guess I will lose the Bubble again.
Got another 15 Bucks laying around here, but I am not really sure if I want really invest them again into Full Tilt...
I really don't know what to do anymore, this is the 3. week in a row that this is happening...
Bad Luck + Donks = No Bueno
------------ In the 1 dollar sit-n-go this Hand:
I have A-J second to act.
first to act with 7.5 BB shoves I have a little above 15 BB (second place) with 5 players left. What do I do?
BTW, Just lost the hand after it. Got A-J again, but offsuited. short-stacks limp all. I shove. 1 call. Q-J. Turn is Q. But at least he was only short-stack and I still got 10 BB..
If it's really as described, that all your losing hands are JJ, KK and so on, then there's a big chance that your shoving range is way too tight. Did you try the "Quiz" option at SNGWiz? It's good to train shoving situation and to get a good idea of the correct ranges at the beginning. If you play SNGs correctly there will also be situations where you shove hands like 57o and run into AK, that's when you will "get lucky" sooner or later, while both your shove and villains call was correct, those are situations that are totally luck dependant.
As for the hands, generally it depends a lot on who is shoving. In general, if the guy shoving is shoving relativly correctly then it's a clear iso-shove with AJs. However, there are guys that shove tighter than correctly (then you have to tighten your calling range to their shoves) or guys that shove wider than usual (then you can widen up your range vs. their shoves). When in doubt (not played against them before) I always go with an average approach. But I think AJs in this scenario is an iso-shove against almost everyone.
AJo also clear shove.
What I want to tell you though is, the more you look at every bad beat the worse your mindset gets. If you want to switch sites, go to pokerstars and play the $0.50 9 player turbo STTs, you will have your 4 tables (or whatever amount you play) up in a matter of 1-2 minutes basically (I believe on fulltilt you have to wait much longer) and turbos will be a good training for your shoving ranges.
in a sit-n-go. Looks good for now, but I guess I will lose the Bubble again.
second to act.
