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  10-Jan-15, 15:33   #1
Scientists create a program to play "perfect poker" 0 
klash23 
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (F)
Posts: 2243
Scientists say they have created a poker program which plays perfect poker and never makes mistakes.
The developers spoke to Science Journal and said the program playing heads-up Limit Texas hold'em could follow a........ "strategy that is guaranteed to not lose money in the long run. While Cepheus does not play perfectly, it is so close to perfect that even after playing an entire lifetime of poker against it — over 60 million hands — it is impossible to tell the difference. It is essentially perfect......."

It also says that we could go to the developers website and play the game and test its' abilities but I have just been and it says it is undergoing temporary maintenance.
Maybe it is not so perfect after all. Smile

If you want to check out all the details of the program then look for 'Cepheus poker project' at the University of Alberta. Smile

     
  10-Jan-15, 15:46   #2
  0 
jeffaboy 
Joined: Jan '14
Location: Netherlands
Age: 20 (M)
Posts: 863
I read about this on the internet , it has played more hands than there are ever played :O incredibly sick, however it is not programmed to play NLH yet Tongue

     
  10-Jan-15, 15:49   #3
  0 
uno1Bomber 

Joined: May '13
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 541
Now I want to learn that bot's strategy.

     
  10-Jan-15, 15:57   #4
  0 
av1966 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 1500
Great Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
Now every bad run will be Cepheus poker project to blain Aww crap! Aww crap!
There will be lots of people moaning that they lost because they were playing against the "rigged machine"
It ´s the death of the bot excuse and the birth of the Cepheus conspiracy Worship Worship
Now the poker world will be doomed Big Smile Big Smile

     
  10-Jan-15, 16:02   #5
  0 
klash23 
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (F)
Posts: 2243
The project is interesting and there is a lot more information on the website.It's a pity we can't actually test it out as I think computer against computer is very different to computer against human.
Another thing that surprised me is that the University of Alberta has its own Computer Poker Research Group which has been active since 1998. Smile

     
  10-Jan-15, 16:15   #6
  0 
jeffaboy 
Joined: Jan '14
Location: Netherlands
Age: 20 (M)
Posts: 863
Yeah the bot however is not even made to play poker but its made to make other decisions but to test it out they used it on poker Tongue

     
  10-Jan-15, 16:19   #7
  0 
xgcsnippy 

Joined: Jan '13
Location: Canada
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 1066
when you download the software I bet it works in the background to know which cards your holding so it knows how to play. Nothing is perfect but you can look perfect if you know the cards other players are playing. Based on math, odds and knowing the cards it would almost be impossible to lose alot of money if any!

just saying could be the death of your bankroll!

     
  10-Jan-15, 16:44   #8
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Intuitively I've always felt that limit holdem was vulnerable to computer programs playing "perfect strategy" against you, so you can't win in the long run.
This project takes a comparatively simple scenario of heads up limit holdem, probably adding 1 other player or making it no limit, will make it very much more complicated.

I wonder, would it make money when plugged into pokerstars? Surely they must have tried...

     
  10-Jan-15, 17:09   #9
  0 
Heskor 
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 2659
There is no perfect strategy, he is talking crap, if he really did manage to do that software he should be making more money than most people and why tell everybody your edge, but you know there are strategies out there that focus on you not being exploitable but it makes you lose edge and it is less profitable also in poker we all know that there is not all info available when you play, anyway cheers good luck to him !

     
  10-Jan-15, 17:12   #10
  0 
uno1Bomber 

Joined: May '13
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 541
Posted by Heskor:
There is no perfect strategy, he is talking crap..

Who? Confused

     
  10-Jan-15, 17:22   #11
  0 
pinotte 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Canada
Age: 73 (M)
Posts: 3495
Here we are talking Hu limits poker for which this program was develop. However i would be very surprise that if someone could create a NL full ring table program that could be so effective that they say the one created is.

There are so many strategy and variance involved in poker and also i wonder who can predict how peoples can react since there can be many different reactions to a decision.

How is it possible to create this kind of program, Question Question

     
  10-Jan-15, 17:34   #12
  0 
uno1Bomber 

Joined: May '13
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 541
Posted by pinotte:

...also i wonder who can predict how peoples can react since there can be many different reactions to a decision.

How is it possible to create this kind of program, Question Question

It's possible only against regular players. Bot could use their statistics and use database against them.
Humans are quite predictable.
It's possible for full ring, but for limitet holdem. No limit holdem would destroy bot owner's bankroll.

     
  10-Jan-15, 17:43   #13
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10039
I doubt that something like that can be made. That if we are talking about a machine playing
perfect poker. How can someone or a program play a card game perfect?
Good, very good, i can accept that. But perfect?

     
  10-Jan-15, 17:59   #14
  0 
uno1Bomber 

Joined: May '13
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 541
Mober, in this case, profitable = perfect. Blink

     
  10-Jan-15, 18:50   #15
  0 
klash23 
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (F)
Posts: 2243
The developers say "guaranteed to not lose money in the long run" and "It is essentially perfect" .This group have spent a lot of time studying poker and seem to know what they on about.I think they probably chose H/U limit because the possibilities are far more limited and more predictable.
Hopefully it will be up and running again soon so we can at least test the program. Smile

     
  10-Jan-15, 19:10   #16
  0 
StS5 
Joined: Aug '14
Location: Germany
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 766
I think that it is impossible to createa poker program which plays perfect poker and never makes mistakes. It might well be that it is mathematically perfect poker, but if the opponent knows, that it is only playing mathematically correct, he can use it against the program I suppose.



     
  10-Jan-15, 19:11   #17
  0 
uno1Bomber 

Joined: May '13
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 541
Imagine online poker of the future: Bots playing vs bots and the "poker room" is the only one who doesn't lose in the long run Big Smile

Seriously, if the bot would play vs the same bot, who would win?
Would you invest money in the pokerbot? Would you play vs bots?

People are so lazy, that they create bots to replace them not only on the work, but also on recreational places.

Maybe it's just me, but I play because I love the game. I used to play on fake money because I loved it, after I realized that I could win real money instead of useless chips.
Today millions of people play poker on the different places just for fun.

Sad

     
  10-Jan-15, 19:15   #18
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2121
That's why they wanted to record me while I was playing! Big Smile

     
  10-Jan-15, 20:12   #19
  0 
jsikonja 

Joined: Mar '14
Location: Slovenia
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 255
im skeptical to the "perfect" : yesterday played on a 0.50 cent 360 play sitngo was already 3rd and in rewards and i wonder what that program would do, a guy went all in with shitload of chips i had AA on BB and called he had QQ and landed a Q on river, cant avoid that and im sure that program would also call. 1 on 1 with AA why not? Smile

     
  10-Jan-15, 21:25   #20
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2121
LoL, They're talking about correct poker decisions... not bad luck.

The program plays limit hold'em I think. No limit has too many variables, bet sizes possibilities that would change the bot's decision... I don't think a bot could be able to play no limit hold'em profitably, especially HU. In the end the human will learn unlike the program that will just keep doing the same thing over and over. I would love to see a good NLHE bot play with his whole cards though, see what it does with Q7o when it doesn't hit the flop, does it c-bet and get bluffed by a check raise? Big Smile

     
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