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Posted by westside1950:
Posted by StheP: yup, but in what amount of time in this case that pricese player would have aces or kings or AK? Very small, and I didnt want someone else in pot, thats why I shoved. If I called, there is chance someone else would call also and hit flop/turn/river... Thats why I had to shove there and hope that player with simular stack to mine doesnt have something like I said...
Exactly this - you don't want him to get the chance to just call and get in the pot cheaply. Reshove is definitly frist option here - especially if he is the only guy with the stack as big as yours...
That is my opinion, and I think thats right play so I agree with you
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Hi mate i would just shove and hope that the shove will not make the player after you call or shove himself and you would go heads up against the stack you have covered, hopefully it is not a flip and you can end up winning the hand and the pot and who knows what will happen from there, anyway good luck at the tables hope you do well and make some good money, will cheer for you from here, cheers mate have fun again!
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To shove or reshove, again in my opinion is way to loose. Run it through icmzer and see what results u get. I'd bet a fold here from mid position is best. From the blinds or late position might change opinions but id fold here in a heart beat with that many people to act after me.
Bottom line is you need QQ or better to shove here or to get in for just the price of the blinds.
Its hard to argue from my position as im just a break even player myself. But after the many hands ive actually played in thousands of sitngos the move u made is the wrong one. or at least would be the wrong one for me.
if your a winning player you already know the best move. don't second guess yourself
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2-Apr-15, 11:10 #4 0 Good post Poor post StheP StheP is currently offline!
Joined: Oct '14 Location: Serbia Age: 25 (M) Posts: 1312 Why you shove than preflop AK and AQ... I never shove preflop AK and AQ... I only shove if I have record of player that he is lose, and he is raising big, and I know he dont have nothing... With this hand is better just to raise preflop, or flat call raise, and see what flop has to ofer... Most of the time you will be dominant preflop, but that doesnt mean that you will win pot... It only mean that you have advantage preflop...
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Posted by pinotte: 2-Apr-15, 11:10 #4 0 Good post Poor post StheP StheP is currently offline!
Joined: Oct '14 Location: Serbia Age: 25 (M) Posts: 1312 Why you shove than preflop AK and AQ... I never shove preflop AK and AQ... I only shove if I have record of player that he is lose, and he is raising big, and I know he dont have nothing... With this hand is better just to raise preflop, or flat call raise, and see what flop has to ofer... Most of the time you will be dominant preflop, but that doesnt mean that you will win pot... It only mean that you have advantage preflop...
That was talking about cash game, this is tournament we are talking about... I would never shove in cash game in mid position with AQ.... But in this tournament it all have sence to shove... There is small stack shoving and you know you got him beat so you must to shove...Expecialy if you have big stack...
------------ and he is also saying here that he shoves with AQ... Which I didnt do, I was facing all in thats why I shoved... I would never ever just shove preflop with AQ like I said in that post... Also if someone isnt short stack and go all in I wouldnt for sure call there, maybe, like I said in that post, if I got read on tham Ill do call all in, but thats just maybe... But here is a lot diferent situation
Well, I wouldn't say 40 BB is a strong stack. But it's not a small stack either. And that's what makes this spot a tough decision especially in middle position. Even if your stack is a bit above average, it's not a stack that you really feel confortable with. I'm a very agressive player, but I have to say I prefer playing pots where I am in control and win before showdown. In this spot, you're forced to take a big risk or fold AQ so really it's your choice. You can't really say folding is the best play here, but you can't say shoving is either. So maybe best play was to call and see what other guy does behind you. If he's a tight player, you can still fold if he shoves over the top. If he's agressive and you know you won't fold if he shoves over the top, then you can just reshove to make your life (or death ) easier.
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Posted by TheMachineQC: Well, I wouldn't say 40 BB is a strong stack. But it's not a small stack either. And that's what makes this spot a tough decision especially in middle position. Even if your stack is a bit above average, it's not a stack that you really feel confortable with. I'm a very agressive player, but I have to say I prefer playing pots where I am in control and win before showdown. In this spot, you're forced to take a big risk or fold AQ so really it's your choice. You can't really say folding is the best play here, but you can't say shoving is either. So maybe best play was to call and see what other guy does behind you. If he's a tight player, you can still fold if he shoves over the top.
ok, I respect your opinion here, and maybe its better than mine, but if you flat call, you can get someone else envolved in pot, and if anyone else envolved in pot, other than that big stack, he would be pot commited, and he would be probably have to shove on flop, so I am facing decision if I missed flop... And I think thats why is better to shove than just flat call...
------------ By the way I am also agresive player but more of raising from position to steal blind or bluff when I am in better position, but not too big also I do a ot of C bets and I would raise in a lot of time after check
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Posted by TheMachineQC: Well, I wouldn't say 40 BB is a strong stack. But it's not a small stack either. And that's what makes this spot a tough decision especially in middle position. Even if your stack is a bit above average, it's not a stack that you really feel confortable with. I'm a very agressive player, but I have to say I prefer playing pots where I am in control and win before showdown. In this spot, you're forced to take a big risk or fold AQ so really it's your choice. You can't really say folding is the best play here, but you can't say shoving is either. So maybe best play was to call and see what other guy does behind you. If he's a tight player, you can still fold if he shoves over the top. If he's agressive and you know you won't fold if he shoves over the top, then you can just reshove to make your life (or death ) easier.
I can agree with your text - except the last sentence.
If your opponent is agressive - calling is out of option here (i would rather fold it , then just call) - beacuse if he is agressive he could re-shove on our call with a lot of hands (99+) and since he is agressive we have to call and most of the time will be flipping - and we want to avoid that. If he is agressive , but not crazy - he would fold his 99/TT/JJ to a shove and then reshove from us.
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This is why i play poker for pure enjoyment and not the profit. If u do everything by the books the fun is no longer there. This hand i might have pushed, might have flat called, who knows but at the end of the day i would have enjoyed playing whether i won or lost money. Everyone has a differnt opinion of whats a right and whats a wrong move. I play everyhand by the feeling i have in that moment whether its right or wrong i dont care. Eather way goodluck at the tables
westside1950 --> Flat calling there could represent KK/AA trying to disguise his hand, or some kind of scared A8-A10 who thinks he has the best hand but doesn't want to push his whole stack yet... Or even a scared mid pair who couldn't fold pre flop. So it could confuse the guy behind you about the strength of your hand, and it keeps the folding option available after the flop if he flats too and the flop is bad for our hand. I can see some advantages in a flat call.
But I have to agree with you that most of the time shove/fold are the best options in this kind of situations simply because it avoids a tough decision on the flop with 25% of your chips in the pot. Always keep in mind though everytime you get AQ on a full table theres about a 3% chance PER PLAYER at the table that someone is holding a premium hand. If you add all these 3%, it means you're gonna be dominated about 20% of the time which sounds huge to me. Especially if you consider that AJ is probably not calling your shove... So if the other 40BB guy calls your shove he probably has you dominated everytime, unless he could call here with a middle pair or AJ/A10s which would be a bad call in a 3 way pot like this. So shoving over the top and getting called is definetly not good news for us.
The more I think about this hand, the more I'm leaning towards folding, but it's a pretty nitty fold at this stage in the tournament. Maybe I'm just overthinking it though, it's actually a pretty standard shove. Sometimes you just have to accept the risks and play the hand you've been dealt. But I would never tell someone he made a bad fold/call/shove in this spot because all 3 options can make sense, especially if there's history between the two "big stacks".
Edited by TheMachineQC (18 April 2015 @ 08:15 GMT)
