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  28-May-15, 15:41   #1
Some Interesting Hand Discussion... 0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1987
First of all, this is the hand in question:

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hands/Boom/14542778_631...

Then this discussion takes place:


Yout85: You're almost certainly a better CG player than me... But why bet that turn??? Did you put him on AK? Maybe TT or JJ? I'm checking that turn back for SURE.

czeng: if he has a set OTF it filled up into a FH and with stacks so deep I need to get the money in.
czeng: and if I had a Kx, I'd bet OTT to protect.
rasow: The only hand that will call you on this turn is KK?
Yout85: So in other words you were representing Kx and hoping he had a FH? ...and that a check there would've looked too strong?
czeng: hehehe. No not saying I'm representing Kx and hoping he had a FH. Saying I need to balance my range OTT. I'm b/f with Kx because against villains value range I'm crushed. If I never x Kx OTT or AX w/ a club then I can't x turn with nuts.
Yout85: But surely when you have an absolute lock on a hand, and are in position.. you don't have to think about balancing your range... It turns into a one-off hand, totally in isolation to anything else and your sole aim should be extracting as much from villain as possible. I think if you check back there, he thinks any Kx is good, any FH is good and any flush is good... and will almost certainly bet and call a raise on the river. Even if he has junk, you may induce a bluff by checking back... and a third king, or second ten or jack may give him quads/FHs that would be next to impossible to lay down. Just my thoughts....
czeng: Yeah i disagree and I've explained my reasoning. Dunno why you're arguing with me over this lol.
Yout85: No, don't get me wrong... I'm not arguing with you. Just trying to understand your reasoning. You may very well be giving brilliant advice, but if I don't understand it I can't use it to my benefit. I don't doubt you're a better CG player than I am... I think the difference between our strategies here is that I'm thinking purely for this pot and how to extract the most money possible, whereas I believe you are thinking long-term.
Yout85: ...Would be nice to have another CG specialist's opinion on this.....
bintangnl: wpwp, interesting turnsizing tho
czeng: I think captain2323 gave his opinion. I respect his opinion alot.
Yout85: Ummmm, plassmma & final , do you think you could elaborate a little rather than just disliking my thoughts on the hand? I'm trying to initiate a strategy discussion here, but are basically just being told "No, you're wrong"... I may very well be wrong, but could you tell me WHERE I'm going wrong?
final: no it was a missclick from me Big Smile and i dont know why i cant undislike it anymoar so i liked it haha stupid s**t


.....Kinda hate how it degenerates into a I'm right, you're wrong attitude, but some great discussion there to begin with I feel.

     
  28-May-15, 15:54   #2
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 6197
This discussion is too long for me and also problably too difficult for me as i read it a bit.
Anyway this is not your hand am i right?

Almost never play cashgame but i also dont understand the bet on the turn if that was your question, bet on the flop is ok.

     
  28-May-15, 15:57   #3
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1987
No not my hand, some guy who is getting coached by a cash game genius... so I'm trying to understand his reasoning so I can apply it to my own game, but basically just getting the response "You're wrong, I'm right"

Why post a hand if you don't want to discuss it??? Don't get it.

     
  28-May-15, 16:03   #4
  0 
bowie1984 

Joined: Apr '12
Location: Hungary
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 4440
Posted by yout85:
Saying I need to balance my range OTT.

Kek.
I am totally with you on this one yout. I'd have checked the turn to too.

     
  28-May-15, 16:06   #5
  0 
pinotte 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Canada
Age: 72 (M)
Posts: 3445
I understand you a discussion should be both way however like you said the guy is a cash game genius and genius do not discus they are right. So they think no way to have dicussion with this kind of guy. And you were right the bet on the flop was a very bad move. Smile Smile

     
  28-May-15, 16:06   #6
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1622
I will bet with the nuts as well, especially on such a wet board, where you opponent could have connected reasonably well, but wants to keep the pot small. If the board is very dry, a check might give your opponents a bit more time to connect, or bluff.

I find that you get more value out of big hands that way, because too often they will just check it down, and fold the river. The folds on the turn are paid for by the occasional all-ins you win that way.

Also when the turn is called, its much harder to fold to a river bet for them (since the pot gets so big, and they are invested in the hand).

And you might become a bit predictable if you keep slow playing the nuts. If you play the nuts the same way as a hand you believe is ahead, or a bluff, you give less information to your opponents.

That being said, this is all way above the limits I'm playing...

     
  28-May-15, 16:34   #7
  0 
pinotte 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Canada
Age: 72 (M)
Posts: 3445
Marqis i really dont follow your thinking that the guy wants to keep the pot small when he raised on the turn. Why raise if you want a small pot. Question Question Question

     
  28-May-15, 16:58   #8
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1622
Posted by pinotte:
Marqis i really dont follow your thinking that the guy wants to keep the pot small when he raised on the turn. Why raise if you want a small pot. Question Question Question

He checked the turn.

     
  28-May-15, 17:23   #9
  0 
pinotte 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Canada
Age: 72 (M)
Posts: 3445
Posted by marqis:
Posted by pinotte:
Marqis i really dont follow your thinking that the guy wants to keep the pot small when he raised on the turn. Why raise if you want a small pot. Question Question Question

He checked the turn.


Sorry he check raised the flop. Question Question
This is why i am saying that the other guy should also have check the turn and wait what is happenning on the river.

Edited by pinotte (Thursday, May 28, 2015 @ 17:34 GMT)


     
  28-May-15, 17:43   #10
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3026
Best play is to check turn... he 3 bet preflop, even he had huge bet on flop, I am sure he would try to take it down on turn, so there is definetly check on turn, he would bet 100% and all you have to do is call...

------------
by the vay nice amount of money you got there Blink

     
  28-May-15, 19:25   #11
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1622
Posted by StheP:
Best play is to check turn... he 3 bet preflop, even he had huge bet on flop, I am sure he would try to take it down on turn, so there is definetly check on turn, he would bet 100% and all you have to do is call...

But he checked the turn...

If hero would have checked the turn as well, villain could only bet the river. That way you miss a street of value. The fact that he checked the turn means he's not as sure anymore, or is trying to trap. Either way, he'll call a half pot bet fairly often, and if he does he'll call the river as well, and you'll double up.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you don't bet the turn, you miss out of one street of value. On such a wet board (which the villain seemed to connect with on the flop), holding the absolute nuts, it would be a shame to let him get away, you want all the money here.

     
  28-May-15, 19:29   #12
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3026
you r right, but he should check also... he would bet river for sure Blink

------------
he checked because he tought he got flush... check back would comfirm tha he doesnt have it, and if river isnt club, he would bet it 100%

     
  28-May-15, 19:42   #13
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1622
Posted by StheP:
he checked because he tought he got flush... check back would comfirm tha he doesnt have it, and if river isnt club, he would bet it 100%

That may well be true, but then all you'll get is that $21.50 on the river, and what you want is the entire $83.71, for that you'll need both streets of value...

     
  28-May-15, 20:19   #14
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3026
well better 21,5$ more than 0 Tongue

     
  28-May-15, 20:24   #15
  0 
bowie1984 

Joined: Apr '12
Location: Hungary
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 4440
Posted by marqis:
Posted by StheP:
he checked because he tought he got flush... check back would comfirm tha he doesnt have it, and if river isnt club, he would bet it 100%

That may well be true, but then all you'll get is that $21.50 on the river, and what you want is the entire $83.71, for that you'll need both streets of value...

U never gonna get all of his shekels with this much of a drawheavy board unless he is holding cowboys. But that river money would've been a sure thing at least.

     
  28-May-15, 20:30   #16
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1987
MonkeyOner assures me that the bet on the turn was correct... although a little bit too big... and although I don't totally agree myself, I must certainly bow to his superior knowledge. The guy is an absolute beast. Probably the best NL50 player in the world.

     
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