Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
I nearly wrote this in a thread started by TheIrish, but I didn't want to HiJack it. I just thought I'd pass on some really basic MTT strategy for anyone who's struggling to get past the "min-cash" phase of being an MTT player.
To be successful in MTTs, you need to make final tables.
Anyway, this is the post I was going to put in TheIrish's thread, but then decided against totally HiJacking:
Good luck with your games. In your other thread you said you were going to play some TCOOP events, is that still happening?
The Buyins for those are a few orders of magnitude above these games
EDIT: I must say, I used to play a LOT of MTTs, done quite well, back when P K R had a bit more traffic.
These days I play them on Stars, I've cashed for nearly $4k (Aus, I guess a little under $3K USD) this month, which has been fantastic - and definiltely not a normal month (I usually cash for maybe $500 in a month).
Anyway - I was going to say, TCOOP reminded me - I've found that playing Turbos seems to be a MUCH better option in regards to getting a decent "hourly" rate from MTTs.
The problem with full-length MTTs is that the payouts are so top-heavy, that even if there are 1,000 runners, you typically need to finish top-5 to make it worthwhile (in terms of an hourly wage, if you consider an MTT lasting 10hours, then divide your payout by 10 and think about what you're earning per hour)
The turbos obviously have a lower skill-factor, which means higher variance. That said - this is considerably offset by the amount of idiots who have no clue how to play short stack poker.
Also - the key to winning money in MTTs is by Going BIG or Busting Out - using a "survival" strategy, aiming to min-cash in lots of MTTs is a shitty strategy and at best will see you break even and at worse is generally a losing strategy. You're far better off cashing in only 1 out of every 10 games, but making that 1 cash a final table.
By this I mean - take loads of (calculated/smart) risks to build a huge stack and get yourself to the final table. Don't be scared of busting. So long as you got your chips in good, then eventually you will get a big cash.
I recently (on Stars) had two top 5 finishes in MTTs with over 1,000 players.
It's not that hard - but you gotta think about it like this: If you keep getting your chips in as a 60:40 favourite for example, on average you will lose at least one of these races and bust from the game. However, occasionally (the one in ten) you'll get run-good, where you make all your draws, your pairs hold against over-cards, the villain doesn't catch their flush, etc. It is really frustrating, because 9 games out of 10 you'll play for quite a while, only to lose your entire stack to a bad-beat.
But just relax, continue to play well and sooner or later things will go your way and if you keep putting your entire stack on the line and get lucky - well, you'll hit the Final Table, instead of a min-cash.
Typically for me, about 1-2 hours into a Tourney, I'm generally either OUT or I'm in the top 10%.
Once I started playing this style, my results sky-rocketed.
And I've found, using this method, playing Turbos and even Hyper-Turbos is the way to go, these games are really suited to 'loose' playing styles. Where you try to build a huge stack quickly, or bust out trying.
Anyway - GL to all - and - I can back up my words, if anyone is struggling with MTT results, I can give you some pointers
Edited by jessthehuman (22 January 2017 @ 03:15 GMT)
Hey there Jess! You trying to squeeze as much volume in as possible before you
Yeah same here I tend to bust pretty soon or be in top 10 in tournaments. But I also tend to overplay pots against other big stacks once I'm there I think that is my biggest leak in MTTs.
I don't play a lot of MTTs because I'm simply better at cash games but I'm in the green in both
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by TheMachineQC: Hey there Jess! You trying to squeeze as much volume in as possible before you
Yeah same here I tend to bust pretty soon or be in top 10 in tournaments. But I also tend to overplay pots against other big stacks once I'm there I think that is my biggest leak in MTTs.
I don't play a lot of MTTs because I'm simply better at cash games but I'm in the green in both
Good luck!
Yeah - over-playing big pots against other big stacks is definitely a bit MTT leak for me too. I mean, if there's 200 people left out of 1,500 beginning and you're coming 7th and you get your whole stack in against one of the 6 people who can knock you out - you really want to get your chips in good. And sometimes it's an awesome play; like if you're actually a strong favourite in the hand when the chips going in, doubling up when you're top 10 vs another top 10 can put you in a pretty bloody good spot.
But I have a bad habit of not letting go in those pots when my fold equity is low (they're probably calling a shove, more than folding) and when my range is not great against their's (I'm either crushed, or flipping). I basically get greedy and start thinking about how the other player won't want to lose all their chips to another big stack and so I waaaaaay over-vale my fold-equity, making it 900% more likely in my head that they'll fold to the shove than make the call.
Then of course I shove, get snap-called and next second I'm out of the MTT. And it can be soul crushing, to be sitting in the top 10 out of 1000+ runners for 2-3 hours and then lose IT ALL in a single hand due to a single, dumb, greedy click of the mouse.
There's aggressive play and then there's stupid. And choosing the right players (AND STACK SIZES!) to bully is pretty darn important really! Especially mid-stage, before and around the bubble
I'm sorry I didn't finish my first sentence in my last post lol it made no sense. I meant to say "you trying to squeeze in as much volume as possible before Australia bans online poker "
And yeah about other big stack, sometimes when you feel like the other big stack is playing back at you out of ego or simply pure agressive skills he really has it. You really have to be disciplined in those spots because it's really not worth it to try to beat the structure too much. 300 BB is enough to survive for a while... but when is enough really enough? lol
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
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Posts: 1875
Congratz for your winning Jess!! And thank you for your 'coaching' or sharing above. That''s make me understand why I couldn't reach final table at big MTT ( 1000 or more entries). I just use "survive" strategy and lost so many change to double my stack when I had big stack.
Glad to know you still can play poker online I wish more coaching from you. Good luck
you have an interesting strategy game .. can be sure it justifies your investment and you really win a lot of money in MTT tournaments ... but I'd like to see confirmation of your words ... can some screenshots and preferably without photoshop)))
Joined: Mar '14
Location: Japan
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 8946
My warmest congratulations to you for your fantastic accomplishments. Your determination, dedication, self-discipline, and effort have been really commendable. Wishing you the best things in your future to come.
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 10090
well this is great- to see jess back and post something bigger than two lines is refreshing. i have to admit that i play sh1tty poker and reading even such great posts like this one and a multitude of others can't make me into a winning player, but in a way this is great- because of players like me, there are dudes who can claim that they are winning players, so i am doing a good thing to humanity.
Joined: May '09
Location: Croatia
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 20405
congratulation on your winnings,its nice to read when somebody takes amount like this on poker sites!now with this problems which you will have in future with playing poker for australian members,will be hard to take money!good luck!
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by pajalnick: you have an interesting strategy game .. can be sure it justifies your investment and you really win a lot of money in MTT tournaments ... but I'd like to see confirmation of your words ... can some screenshots and preferably without photoshop)))
But when I used to play a lot more, I played a lot on P K R - same username as here. You can search on Sharkscope, pretty sure my MTT winnings are around $12K or something. dunno - haven't looked in years tbh.
But you can see I was losing, then break even, then it started shooting up once I adapted my strategy to play for the win..
I also practised a LOT of HU, so I think if you look at my finished, I have I think more than double the amount of 1st place wins vs 2nd places.. So it's a good idea to practise 6max SNGs, so you're a strong player if/when you DO make it down to the final few.
Because there are HUGE leaps in prize money once you reach the final table. The difference between 1st and 2nd place is often huge. Even if 2nd place is a great amount of money, overall - if you can convert a lot of those HU matches into wins, you'll get a much bet overall win-rate. So worth practising HU SNGs. Turbo is usually about right to get a feel for end-game MTTs.
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Posted by TheMachineQC: Hey there Jess! You trying to squeeze as much volume in as possible before you
lol yeah - pretty much. also just wrapped up full time work for a while. So I've cashed around $3K in AUD in the first couple weeks after I finished working (end of Jan I guess).
So my wife is pressuring me to get in as many games as possible now before Australia closes up shop haha.
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Posted by pochui: well this is great- to see jess back and post something bigger than two lines is refreshing. i have to admit that i play sh1tty poker and reading even such great posts like this one and a multitude of others can't make me into a winning player, but in a way this is great- because of players like me, there are dudes who can claim that they are winning players, so i am doing a good thing to humanity.
haha man, you crack me up!
Also - to everyone - I was never a big fan of following poker pros, or anything like that.
However, recently I've been watching Doug Polk videos on YouTube - he seems like a genuinely decent guy, but more importantly - he's a huge win ner (up millions of dollars as WCG|Rider on stars) and in each video in his "Poker Hands" YouTube series he picks a famous poker hand and gives a really good in-depth hand analysis.
Some of the advise he gives is priceless. There's no way you could NOT learn something, even by just watching a couple of his videos.
If you watch a whole bunch and really try and absorb what he says, I can almost guarantee it will improve your game.
Edited by jessthehuman (27 February 2017 @ 00:19 GMT)
