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Push or Fold?
 

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  14-Oct-09, 13:20   #1
JJ - Final Table - What would you do? +1 
jevo 

Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1086
Final Table - 8 handed

We're on the button and dealt:

J HeartJ Diamond

We have 12bb

UTG+2 pushes for 5.5bb

Cutoff pushes for 17bb

Do we push, or fold expecting to see a higher PP out there?

Edited by jevo (14 October 2009 @ 13:23 GMT)


     
  14-Oct-09, 13:30   #2
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 6703
Shitty situation. If you lose aganist UTG+2 but win against CO you will have the same stack. But if you lose a gainst CO, you are out.

Depends a lot on average ship stacks and spread of prices and naturely how tight or lose the CO is pushing here.

     
  14-Oct-09, 13:34   #3
  +1 
jevo 

Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1086
You have no reads on either player

There are 2 stacks over 60bb but neither are in the hand. 4 other stack between 10 and 20 bb's

     
  14-Oct-09, 13:38   #4
  +1 
Pjot 
Joined: May '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1362
I voted for fold, but I'm not really sure I actually would do it. I was in a similair situation not long ago, but I had a little less chips. One raise, reraise, and me with JJ. I pushed. The original raiser went all in, and the third dude folded.

The enemy had QQ and I was so out of there.

Afterwards I told myself that I knew I was up against a high PP. But I had been getting so bad cards the whole tournament, that I was so happy to get anything at all. (I made it to the finalt table thanks to some miracle flops that doubled me up. Didn't get many decent starting hands. JJ was probably my best.)

And I was really tired, it was late.

     
  14-Oct-09, 13:48   #5
  -1 
Davoodoo 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: Finland
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1612

All in !! You cant win if you arent in ...

     
  14-Oct-09, 13:53   #6
  +1 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1885
Does depend on the play until now and the pressure to push but in most situations I think you have to fold. Even if you're up against AK and AQ you're in a race with your whole tourney on the line. That's one of the best situations you could hope for as they each have one of the others outs but even that's not ideal. As shokaku said you could be risking everything to stay in exactly the same position. You have no commitments to the pot and aren't desperate yet so I vote fold. It also depends on whether you're already in the money and how much you stand to gain by waiting just one round of play before you push.

     
  14-Oct-09, 13:56   #7
  +1 
xxxbchxxx 

Joined: Nov '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 2194
Hmmmm not a good position to be in really....
I voted for fold, if there are two people in the pot already and still a few to act JJ aint that good a hand to be holding.
If you think Pushing will get the others to fold then there is milage in doing so but from my own experiance they'll call anyway.
I think it should be a relitive easy fold.... unless you wish to gamble that no one else will hit or even have a higher pair.
But JJ in a multi way pot still isn't very good Blink FOLD FOLD FOLD Thumbs Up

     
  14-Oct-09, 14:00   #8
  +1 
Koyotgwc 
Joined: Aug '09
Location: Poland
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 24
Fold of course

why? because you are fighting for the money! they are showing a lot of strenght so either it will be a coin flip for ex JJ vs AK or AQ either you are far behind with smaller pair ex JJ vs QQ or higher

fold fold and dont think about it Smile

     
  14-Oct-09, 14:12   #9
  +1 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 6197
Hmmm dificult 1, depends on so much factors.
Like the way u say against 2 oponents problably a fold.

     
  14-Oct-09, 14:27   #10
  +1 
magatt966 

Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 3851
Against two opponent my choice is to fold: with JJ i guess it would be a situation worst than coinflip and If u fold, with a bit of luck meaning CO win the HU, you will find yourself in 7th position instead of 8th; otherwise if UTG+2 wins, him and CO will have the same your stack.

In this situation I will only push with AA or KK (KK would be an option for me cause I would hope for a hole ace for each oppo).

     
  14-Oct-09, 16:09   #11
  +1 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 4816
Everyone is expecting for you to fold because, to go, you have to call an all in with all in, and you only should do that with very big hands. All this at pre flop. The cutoff can be doing one of 2 things: a) robbing due to his good position , or b) having a medium pair in the hand and expecting everyone to fold once he will already win a good pot, upgrading his stack in 3/4. If he is a good player he will never have a pair better than JJ, because if he did he would try to raise the pot even more. After this tough thought i think i would have gone all in (i am just remembering now of a first hand i played in 10 players $5,50 SnG: i had KK, blinds 10-20, i was tg+1 and bet 100, exactly the cutoff bet 500, no one else went, i raised all in, he went with me with QQ, and unfortunatly the flop brought a Q and everything else was trash, but this loose doesnt mean i would have played it differently).

     
  14-Oct-09, 16:31   #12
  +1 
Sardoso 
Joined: Sep '08
Location: Italy
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 124
After 2 push for me is a easy fold, but its depend for the preaction at table...
And the difference of $$ for final position...

     
  14-Oct-09, 16:44   #13
  0 
jevo 

Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1086
Ok, nice replies there fellas.

The reason I posted this hand was because it the defining moment in a tournament I won recnetly.

It was the 3rd hand into the final table which started with 8 players, I was short stacked due to a couple of maniacs at my table throughout the proceedings.

I decided once I got to the final table that I was going to open right up and go FTW. And the way this hand played I thought of two things when it came to me.

THIS:
Posted by shokaku:If you lose aganist UTG+2 but win against CO you will have the same stack.


AND THIS:
Posted by Fakiry:
or b) having a medium pair in the hand and expecting everyone to fold once he will already win a good pot, upgrading his stack in 3/4. If he is a good player he will never have a pair better than JJ, because if he did he would try to raise the pot even more.


Along with the thought of going FTW they were enough points for me to gamble Blink

this is what happened:

Villian1 shows - 7 Club7 Heart
Villian2 shows - 9 Heart9 Spade

Flop came

J Spade 7 DiamondA Club

Turn
no 7 no 9 no 8 no 10

River
No 7

yay Big Smile Cool

     
  14-Oct-09, 16:56   #14
  0 
Joe_Average 

Joined: Dec '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 735
Well done! i would probl. have folded too, but this: and this: (see above) makes a lot of sense.
I hope I will remember the next time I'll be in that situation Big Smile
Again mate: very well done! Worship

btw, what place did you end up?

     
  14-Oct-09, 17:25   #15
  0 
watoba 
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 696
it´s not easy there´s many other factor´s in this situation
how the read´s to the other player´s,how high the stack´s from the other player´s how much money u get for the next place when one go out and so on,12 BB not much sometimes i fold sometimes a push a hand like jj.
It´s the feeling for the situation i mean

     
  14-Oct-09, 17:42   #16
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1885
I'm glad that you won this tourney but the fact that this hand was so perfect for you doesn't change what the correct play was. I understand why you made your decision but basically you were on tilt. You weren't happy being low stack and you didn't feel confident enough playing on from there so you decided to gamble. This is fine as you understood that if this gamble payed off you could play the tourney from here on well and after one gamble you obviously played well as you won.

However your two reasons are flawed. The fact that you could win and be in the same position is not an advantage cos this will mean you will have to gamble again. If you want to gamble you should try and get in the all or nothing position where your either out or getting a decent stack. You don't want to have to gamble for several hands.

And the second reason is flawed because villain 2 is not going to just call with better hands than JJ. If he has QQ he doesn't want to see a flop in this position. He has to go all in even with AA otherwise he might appear stronger. The pot is a third of his stack. He should never just call.

     
  14-Oct-09, 17:54   #17
  +1 
Kriillee 
Joined: Nov '07
Location: Sweden
Age: 31 (F)
Posts: 40
I vote for fold. Hopefully UTG+2 looses e pot and u get 1 place closer to the first place and hopefully you pick up a decent hand to push Cool

     
  14-Oct-09, 17:59   #18
  +1 
SuperNoob 

Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 4873
it was a difficult call to make but i would call that one for the same reason as shokaku told.
jj is not one of my favorite hands but for final table its fold/shove as you already are a short stack and you might not get a better hand

     
  14-Oct-09, 19:14   #19
  0 
Ali_c 
Joined: May '09
Location: Denmark
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 122
well i hate jacks, and im not kidding every time im deep in a torny and some 1 raises infront of me the first thing that comes to my find is FOLD, and thats what i do.

jacks : worst hand in poker. rather have 72o

     
  14-Oct-09, 20:17   #20
  0 
jevo 

Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1086
Posted by awood88:
I'm glad that you won this tourney but the fact that this hand was so perfect for you doesn't change what the correct play was. I understand why you made your decision but basically you were on tilt. You weren't happy being low stack and you didn't feel confident enough playing on from there so you decided to gamble. This is fine as you understood that if this gamble payed off you could play the tourney from here on well and after one gamble you obviously played well as you won.

However your two reasons are flawed. The fact that you could win and be in the same position is not an advantage cos this will mean you will have to gamble again. If you want to gamble you should try and get in the all or nothing position where your either out or getting a decent stack. You don't want to have to gamble for several hands.

And the second reason is flawed because villain 2 is not going to just call with better hands than JJ. If he has QQ he doesn't want to see a flop in this position. He has to go all in even with AA otherwise he might appear stronger. The pot is a third of his stack. He should never just call.


hmmm, although I kinda understand your logic I can't protest enough about being me being on tilt, as I wasn't in the slightest. The fact of the matter is, one more round after this hand and I would need to be pushing with anything having just over 10bb's so, this was the ideal spot I trusted my read by the play in front of me, went with it and near on trippled up.

I don't always play this hand in this way, I would normally fold but, it just felt right this time and it was nice to see it worked out. This was more to prove that in these tourneys, your decisions aren't always as ABC as a lot play them.

     
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