Do that im sure u will eventually learn to love BBP since there are player who are even worse than me and believe im a bad player im -707 on FTP my stats there are straight downwards it was big mistake when i thought i should start playing poker on FTP since i had absolutely no experience !!!!!
However on BBP im now up with 1k and i have 1337 vip points im pretty sur u can make good money there and as i mentioned b4 there support team is worldclass they are the BOMB u just have to love em
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Posted by Doomsday_vic: People arguing about freemoney >_>.
Thanks, Doomsday_vic, some very useful information there, and also it's reassuring that you're happy with BBP, and yes, the first bonus offer is very good value.
One issue I have with your posting is that we are not arguing about *free* money. This would only be free money if you quickly lost the initial $10 without generating much rake, and that is a risk that BBP obviously consider worthwhile in order to attract new players. That is just a minor marketing expense for them - their choice. When we argue about what points are necessary to qualify for further bonuses, then we are not talking about free money.
No poker room gives away much free money, they only give back a percentage of what they have earned from you, and it's obviously sensible for players to seek out the best deals for themselves. I started playing at BBP because of an exceptional offer. That exceptional offer has now been re-interpreted by BBP, which means that I may have been better off playing elsewhere and I have, in fact, been duped into playing & generating rake for BBP under false pretences. Their promotion is NOT as advertised!
I'd like to make it clear that I am not anti-BBP. I enjoy playing there and I'd like to continue. I appreciate that they have some good incentives. I just think that they've messed-up big time with this promo and that they should do the decent thing and honour their original terms for players who have already signed-up through this promotion. They also need to quickly change and clarify the terms of the promotion so that future customers are not misled. The promotion, as currently advertised is deliberately misleading and can only engender lack of trust and customer anger that they have been duped into playing there. It does not engender customer loyalty. So, BBP, if you want to keep your customers, and keep them happy, please do something about this promotion and also about the lack of, and difficulty in finding, definitive information on your website.
Looking at the figures, now they have been unearthed, we can see that the promotion as originally devised would equate to rakeback of approximately 86%:
5,000 points @ $0.10 per point = $500 rake generated. Bonus for 5,000 pts = $330 + (min)$100. i.e. a minimum of $430 430 * 100 / 500 = 86% rakeback
So you can see why people have signed-up. You can also see why BBP have decided to re-interpret it.
People that are criticizing what I have written seem to be missing the point. I am not saying that BBP promotions are bad value, or that BBP are bent. I am saying that everyone who has signed-up for this promotion has done so under false pretences, and that if BBP want to retain their customers and their credibility and perceived trustworthiness, it may be wise to rethink their decision to re-interpret this promotion after the event.
Joined: May '09
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Posts: 4873
Posted by SteveCut: Looking at the figures, now they have been unearthed, we can see that the promotion as originally devised would equate to rakeback of approximately 86%:
5,000 points @ $0.10 per point = $500 rake generated. Bonus for 5,000 pts = $330 + (min)$100. i.e. a minimum of $430 430 * 100 / 500 = 86% rakeback
So you can see why people have signed-up. You can also see why BBP have decided to re-interpret it.
I understand ur concerns steve, but don't u think 86% is a bit too high rakeback for a no deposit bonus and with some players withdrawing early it will amount to even more, a big loss for BBP.
Joined: Feb '09
Location: Latvia
Age: 70 (M)
Posts: 27
Posted by SuperNoob: I understand ur concerns steve, but don't u think 86% is a bit too high rakeback for a no deposit bonus and with some players withdrawing early it will amount to even more, a big loss for BBP.
Hi Noob, yes, it is high, although they do offer 83.33% on their first deposit bonus, and there's really no difference between a deposit and no-deposit bonus except for the initial $10 risk, as they are making their money from the rake whether or not you actually deposit with them. The ND will get them more sign-ups too. So it is in-line with their other major new-customer garning promotion.
Whether it's too high is a matter of viewpoint. I certainly do not consider it too high They, obviously do! It's not my problem whether it's too high for them or not. They devised the promotion. I signed-up for it in good faith. I just want them to honour it.
Posted by p1994219: Can anyone say that the rules of this bonus are very clear, you understand them 100% with at first reading?
I disagree, the rules are perfectly clear. It is also perfectly clear that BigBetPoker have now, retrospectively, decided that the rules will be interpreted to mean something else entirely, which works out much, much cheaper for them. Frankly that is quite unacceptable. The alternative is that they have deliberately misled us from the start. I'm not sure which is worse, but I have evidence that they have decided to re-interpret the rules of this promotion.
For this to mean what BBP now claim it to mean, the words "an additional" would have to be added before each points required sum. Without this the table can be logically interpreted in only one way, which is what is actually stated there i.e. "Points Required". i.e. If you have earned 400 points, you are awarded another $35 which is $65 cumulative. It can mean nothing else as it stands.
If you still think this may still be open to interpretation then consider this. Every incentive scheme offered by every poker room is geared to reward long-term and bigger-spending customers more than low-spending customers. That has to be so, as they want to reward and retain the customers that earn the most for them. If this scheme was really designed to work as BBP are now saying it is, it would mean that for the first 200 pts you would get $20, for the next 400 pts you would get $35, for the next 750 pts you would get $40 and so on. Let's look at the two extremes of this stupid system:
Level 1: 200 pts = $20 so you earn $10 per 100 pts. Level 6: 3500 pts = $100 so you earn $2.86 per 100 pts.
So, this poor player, who has reached level 6, and in doing so earned BBP a fortune in rake, for in fact to reach level 6 he has not earned just 3,500 points, but an incredible 8100 points, is being rewarded for his loyalty at less than 1/3rd of the rate of a beginner. Good scheme, eh?
OK, so I hope I've proved beyond reasonable doubt that this interpretation of the scheme is, frankly, ludicrous. But, just in case you still have doubts, here's the clincher. Take a look at level 7, the special* level and note the asterisk(*), points required 5,000, which under BBP's new interpretation, would in fact be, total points required 13,100. So, if the total number of points that you have to earn to qualify for level 7 is, and always has been, 13,100 as BBP claim, then what's the meaning of this:
<Quote> "*) When reaching 5000 points you should send an e-mail to [email protected] and ask for your special bonus (minimum value $100). <Unquote>
You can see it for yourself in black and white at:
Not "when reaching 13,100", but "when reaching 5000".
Case closed.
I entered this promotion in good faith, and I am not prepared to allow BBP to change the terms after the event and deny me the promised bonuses. They must stand by their promotion, even if they may have realised that it's too expensive for them. That's their problem. They devised the promotion and must now honour it. I would appreciate the support of other mobsters and of BRM themselves. I sincerely hope that BBP will put their hands in the air, say they've made a mistake, and agree to honour the original terms. If not, and if BRM, also do not agree to argue our case, then I will go to the major poker forums and to Casinomeister with this. But I really don't want it to come to that. So can we get this resolved here, in house please?
Ok I'm going to try and go through this step by step so we have some clarity on this.
As you can see, there is a special deal for BRM members where you got to start at Level 2 (hence the occasional confusion over the naming of the coupon).
Now, as Doomsday and others have mentioned this bonus is slightly unique in that we give you the bonus IN ADVANCE. You don't have to earn it, each time you get a bonus BigBetPoker is giving you FREE CASH. The reason for removing the bonus of your current level if you cash out is simply that you haven't cleared it. We're giving you cash in advance.
Now by following the logic being applied to this interpretation:-
You get $10 free for 0 points, then once you reach 200 points you should get $20, I think everyone agrees on this so far.
So the simple misinterpretation of this is down to the fact that you saying that it should be the total amount of VIP points earned and not the amount needed to complete each level.
As you can see from the chart posted on BBP there was a point requiement for level 1 not the 0 posted on BRM and I guess it is this that has caused the confusion.
The rules for this have never changed and as I'm sure that as illustrated by the fact that you can see from the posting by Doomsday that 10 VIP Points = $1 rake that we actually don't make anything from this promotion until players reach Level 4.
" I would appreciate the support of other mobsters and of BRM themselves. I sincerely hope that BBP will put their hands in the air, say they've made a mistake, and agree to honour the original terms. If not, and if BRM, also do not agree to argue our case, then I will go to the major poker forums and to Casinomeister with this. But I really don't want it to come to that. So can we get this resolved here, in house please?"
There is no change to the original terms.
------------
Posted by SteveCut:
Posted by Doomsday_vic: People arguing about freemoney >_>.
Thanks, Doomsday_vic, some very useful information there, and also it's reassuring that you're happy with BBP, and yes, the first bonus offer is very good value.
One issue I have with your posting is that we are not arguing about *free* money. This would only be free money if you quickly lost the initial $10 without generating much rake, and that is a risk that BBP obviously consider worthwhile in order to attract new players. That is just a minor marketing expense for them - their choice. When we argue about what points are necessary to qualify for further bonuses, then we are not talking about free money.
No poker room gives away much free money, they only give back a percentage of what they have earned from you, and it's obviously sensible for players to seek out the best deals for themselves. I started playing at BBP because of an exceptional offer. That exceptional offer has now been re-interpreted by BBP, which means that I may have been better off playing elsewhere and I have, in fact, been duped into playing & generating rake for BBP under false pretences. Their promotion is NOT as advertised!
I'd like to make it clear that I am not anti-BBP. I enjoy playing there and I'd like to continue. I appreciate that they have some good incentives. I just think that they've messed-up big time with this promo and that they should do the decent thing and honour their original terms for players who have already signed-up through this promotion. They also need to quickly change and clarify the terms of the promotion so that future customers are not misled. The promotion, as currently advertised is deliberately misleading and can only engender lack of trust and customer anger that they have been duped into playing there. It does not engender customer loyalty. So, BBP, if you want to keep your customers, and keep them happy, please do something about this promotion and also about the lack of, and difficulty in finding, definitive information on your website.
Looking at the figures, now they have been unearthed, we can see that the promotion as originally devised would equate to rakeback of approximately 86%:
5,000 points @ $0.10 per point = $500 rake generated. Bonus for 5,000 pts = $330 + (min)$100. i.e. a minimum of $430 430 * 100 / 500 = 86% rakeback
So you can see why people have signed-up. You can also see why BBP have decided to re-interpret it.
People that are criticizing what I have written seem to be missing the point. I am not saying that BBP promotions are bad value, or that BBP are bent. I am saying that everyone who has signed-up for this promotion has done so under false pretences, and that if BBP want to retain their customers and their credibility and perceived trustworthiness, it may be wise to rethink their decision to re-interpret this promotion after the event.
Actually, refering to your 2nd paragraph, we are talking about free money until you reach level 4.
We are giving away free money and taking a gamble on the players.
The deal has never been "re-interpreted' but more mis-interpreted. In hindsight this would have been clearer if we had named the column "Points required to complete level".
As you state in your posts, Poker sites give back a % of what players are making and if this were the case then I could understand your displeasure but in this instance we are giving you money in advance.
I'm sure you'd be happier with the promo so that you got back 100% of what you generated but I think the vast majority of players would realize that this is a pretty poor way to run a business.
As it is, we've taken a huge gamble with this promotion in order to get player a really good offer and to continue our philosophy of giving players a great deal.
------------
Posted by SteveCut:
Posted by SuperNoob: I understand ur concerns steve, but don't u think 86% is a bit too high rakeback for a no deposit bonus and with some players withdrawing early it will amount to even more, a big loss for BBP.
Hi Noob, yes, it is high, although they do offer 83.33% on their first deposit bonus, and there's really no difference between a deposit and no-deposit bonus except for the initial $10 risk, as they are making their money from the rake whether or not you actually deposit with them. The ND will get them more sign-ups too. So it is in-line with their other major new-customer garning promotion.
Whether it's too high is a matter of viewpoint. I certainly do not consider it too high They, obviously do! It's not my problem whether it's too high for them or not. They devised the promotion. I signed-up for it in good faith. I just want them to honour it.
I really suggest that you do the maths of exactly what you get (based on the points being required to complete each level) and view for yourself the risk/reward position for this promotion.
You're obviously missing the point that we don't cover the cost of the bonus PRIOR to you getting it so each time someone reaches a new level that I'm actually taking a risk on that amount until players are very late in the promotion.
As for signing up for the promotion in good faith and us honoring it, the fact that you have interpretted it in a different way to the other people who have signed up for this promo does not negate the fact that it has always worked this way.
We have not changed the structure of this bonus from day 1 so I don't think my credibility is at risk in the sense that I am trying to renege on a deal or even amend it.
I hope that makes sense and I'm sure that some of the more mathematically astute of you will work out exactly what our overall postion is for this promotion
Cheers, John
Edited by __BigBetPoker (20 October 2009 @ 16:43 GMT)
Joined: Apr '08
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I reached 700 points one hour ago. I had 117,45$ on my account. I cashed out 82$ (117 - 35$) = 82$. (I think I got wrong information last week in BBP chat (my example was last week 100$ - 10+20+35$ => I can cash out only 35$!!).
I sent my ID and bill by email to BBP and I am waiting my money to Moneybookers account...
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 1
so you lost that 35$ because they were to boost your bankroll you were paid in advance, but when you cash out you lose those 35$ because you dont earn it
Posted by p1994219: I reached 700 points one hour ago. I had 117,45$ on my account. I cashed out 82$ (117 - 35$) = 82$. (I think I got wrong information last week in BBP chat (my example was last week 100$ - 10+20+35$ => I can cash out only 35$!!).
I sent my ID and bill by email to BBP and I am waiting my money to Moneybookers account...
You can always cashout the amount of money in your account minus the current bonus you're working on. We never deduct previous bonuses.
So in this instance $117-$35 (current level) is $82 availablefor cashout.
Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4873
Posted by p1994219: I reached 700 points one hour ago. I had 117,45$ on my account. I cashed out 82$ (117 - 35$) = 82$. (I think I got wrong information last week in BBP chat (my example was last week 100$ - 10+20+35$ => I can cash out only 35$!!).
I sent my ID and bill by email to BBP and I am waiting my money to Moneybookers account...
don't get why would u prefer to cashout instead of playing through and unlocking full bonus
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
Posted by SuperNoob:
Posted by p1994219: I reached 700 points one hour ago. I had 117,45$ on my account. I cashed out 82$ (117 - 35$) = 82$. (I think I got wrong information last week in BBP chat (my example was last week 100$ - 10+20+35$ => I can cash out only 35$!!).
I sent my ID and bill by email to BBP and I am waiting my money to Moneybookers account...
don't get why would u prefer to cashout instead of playing through and unlocking full bonus
#2
Just keep on playing and release the rest of the bonus.
doomsday, please correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is once you reach 700 pts you can withdraw your entire bankroll (say you are on level 3, without having the 10+20+35 bonus freezed).
All I'm saying is, it does not make sense to continue with this 'bankroll builder' at a high level where you are getting less than 20percent rakeback and only receive it when you actually complete 5000 points (NOT cumulative). obviously the initial 3-4 levels are brilliant, for example, in level 2, you get 100percent rakeback (200 points, $20).
Are you saying that once I discontinue from this promotion, if I deposit, I am entitled to no deposit bonus? And what do you mean 83.33 rb as a first deposit bonus, never heard of it before. Anyway, you are wrong about full tilt. Its my main platform and I had no deposit bonus, first deposit bonus plus the standard 27% weekly rb. u just need to find the right affiliate.
Posted by deranged84: doomsday, please correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is once you reach 700 pts you can withdraw your entire bankroll (say you are on level 3, without having the 10+20+35 bonus freezed).
All I'm saying is, it does not make sense to continue with this 'bankroll builder' at a high level where you are getting less than 20percent rakeback and only receive it when you actually complete 5000 points (NOT cumulative). obviously the initial 3-4 levels are brilliant, for example, in level 2, you get 100percent rakeback (200 points, $20).
Are you saying that once I discontinue from this promotion, if I deposit, I am entitled to no deposit bonus? And what do you mean 83.33 rb as a first deposit bonus, never heard of it before. Anyway, you are wrong about full tilt. Its my main platform and I had no deposit bonus, first deposit bonus plus the standard 27% weekly rb. u just need to find the right affiliate.
I'll let Doomsday answer a lot of this but the BigBetPoker1st deposit bonus is 100% up to $500 but unlike most sites where you would have to rake $2000+ with BigBetPoker you only need to rake $600 to clear the entire bonus (which incidentally, you can redeem at $2 at a time) which equates to the same as getting 83.3% Rakeback.
You can withdraw your entire balance once you reach 700 points (and have a balance greater than $50) but as you are getting the bonuses in advance you will lose your current bonus for the level at which you choose to withdraw. You will NOT lose any of the previous levels as you have in effect 'cleared' them.
I'm also not really sure how people are comparing getting Rakeback on the Bankroll Builder to anything else. I'm pretty sure in your example that you weren't getting 27% RB from FT when you were on your No Deposit Bonus with them. We offer players up to 30% Rakeback (better then FT) as well as having cleared the NDB or/and the First Deposit Bonus.
We set out to create an unmatched bonus offer for players and as far as I'm aware there's no-one else that comes close. If I'm wrong I'd love to hear about better offers so I can look to beat them!
I have a much clearer understanding now. One more thing, i want to confirm if i withdraw from the bankroll builder will i be eligible for first deposit bonus? (i know under the rules it says no, but doomsday and you made it sound like i could)
I have a much clearer understanding now. One more thing, i want to confirm if i withdraw from the bankroll builder will i be eligible for first deposit bonus? (i know under the rules it says no, but doomsday and you made it sound like i could)
Hi Deranged,
Yes, once you come out of the Bankroll Builder promotion you are eligible for the 1st dposit bonus and once you complete that we can also look to place you on a Rakeback deal as well.
and with regards to ft, you are right, when i was clearing the first deposit bonus it was definitely way less than your estimated 86 percent. this is definitely the highest i've seen.
Posted by deranged84: and with regards to ft, you are right, when i was clearing the first deposit bonus it was definitely way less than your estimated 86 percent. this is definitely the highest i've seen.
I will say that this offer WILL be ending on the 1st of November and whilst the new offer will be considerably better than anyone elses 1st Dep Bonus it won't be as good as the current one...... so grab it while it's there!!
Joined: Feb '09
Location: Latvia
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I've done the additional maths for the NDB as interpreted by BBP and, to be frank, the deal is not as bad as I first feared:
13,100 pts = $1,310 rakeback generated. Bonus = $430 (min) which is equivalent to 32.82% rakeback.
That's nowhere near the 86% that would be earned if the deal was as described, but it's obviously not daylight robbery.
<quote> As for signing up for the promotion in good faith and us honoring it, the fact that you have interpretted it in a different way to the other people who have signed up for this promo does not negate the fact that it has always worked this way. <unquote>
You are kidding right? I have interpreted it in a different way to the other people? Show me one person who signed-up for this thinking that each level required them to start earning points from scratch again. If I were to post this promotion on a forum and ask members, for instance, how many points they'd have to earn to earn a $65 cumulative bonus, I would be amazed if ONE person would interpret it your way. It is absolutely clear how the promotion is intended to be interpreted. If you're not admitting to re-interpretation, then we must assume that you intended to deceive us from the start or that the deviser of the promotion has no grasp of logic or of the English language.
Anyway, there's no point in me harping on about this, as it's clear you're not going to be paying out as stated in the printed promotion description, so at the very least I urge you to change the table now to show cumulative points (the same as every other poker room does) so that there is no bad feeling in future and new customers understand what they're signing-up for. Will you at least do that, please?
Also, all this information that has now come to light about the bonus payments being in advance, and not withdrawable until you've earned further points etc. is not mentioned anywhere on the promotion page on BBP or BRM, in the T&C's or anywhere on either website, yet this is fundamental information as to how this promotion is run & is fundamental information that customers need to know before signing-up. Do you not agree? Why is this information only made available when some stroppy B@$!@rd like me starts kicking up a fuss? It should be there, clearly shown on the promotion page. Will you please add it immediately, so that new players know what they're signing-up for?
As I stated previously, I enjoy playing at BBP, and now we have at long-last established some clarity about how this promotion works I can see that it is a reasonable promotion even if it's not the brilliant one that was advertised. I would like to continue on the bankroll builder promotion and then, if all goes well, deposit money for the first deposit promotion but...
My only problem now is that, because of the, what shall we call it, *lack of clarity* of the advertised ND promotion (see, I can be very tactful when I want to be ), I now have no chance of completing the ND before the 1st deposit bonus is downgraded. So, how about a gesture of goodwill from BBP? Give all of those that have signed-up for the ND bonus, thinking that they only need 5,000 pts to clear it the opportunity to sign-up for the current 1st deposit bonus when they do eventually get there - even if it's after the 1st November. It would go a long way to restoring the support and loyalty of your currently disgruntled ND bonus customers, and how many are we talking about anyway? Most people, either lose or withdraw before completing the ND bonus. How about it, John? Do we have a deal?
------------ One more thing to bear in mind while you're considering this, John. Any player that completes the ND bonus, must be a winning player. Winning players tend to play more and will continue to play long term, i.e. they will be your best customers. If you can offer people this small incentive as I've suggested, the only people taking it up will be almost guaranteed to be amongst your best customers. A small price to pay, I'd have thought for the considerable rake they can earn for you. You know it makes sense
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Posted by SteveCut: One more thing to bear in mind while you're considering this, John. Any player that completes the ND bonus, must be a winning player. Winning players tend to play more and will continue to play long term, i.e. they will be your best customers. If you can offer people this small incentive as I've suggested, the only people taking it up will be almost guaranteed to be amongst your best customers. A small price to pay, I'd have thought for the considerable rake they can earn for you. You know it makes sense
I do understand your points Steve and I will have some amendments made to the way the terms are written.
As for your proposal about the 1st deposit bonus. I will honor the current 1st Dep bonus for players completing the NDB as you suggest.
As some of the members here will testify, we're pretty accomodating to our members so I will consider each case on it's merits when players ask about this.
starts kicking up a fuss? It should be there, clearly shown on the promotion page. Will you please add it immediately, so that new players know what they're signing-up for?
